Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?

Inside Catholic ^ | October 24, 2009 | Mark Shea

[Petronski]

Exactly. Hope you finally get it.

Oh I definitely get it. Elim tactics are Scientology tactics.

Plain as day, two cults...er, peas...in a pod.

[Petronski]

That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. --John 3:15

[wagglebee]

I see, your theory is that St. Paul wants people to pray that Onesiphorus be granted the mercy to find Paul, even though this event happened in the past and Onesiphorus is now dead.

The Deutero-Canonical books were rejected by all because they were not written by prophets nor cited.

Then why were they contained in the original KJV.

As an aside, NONE of the proofs that I have given for Purgatory on this thread have been from any Deutero-Canonical books.

[Petronski]

Sorry. Didn't mean to shortchange you in my previous post.

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another, though my reins be consumed within me.
(Job 19:26,27)

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
(Psalm 23:6)

One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
(Psalm 27:4)

The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
(Psalm 37:18)

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
(Matthew 6:20)

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(John 14:2,3)

But if the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Romans 8:11)

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
(Romans 8:17,18)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(1 Corinthians 15:51-54)

But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
—Psalm 49:15

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
—John 3:16

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
—John 5:24

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
—John 6:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life.
—John 10:27, 28

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
—John 11:25, 26

The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
—Romans 6:23

[Uri’el-2012]

I see, your theory is that St. Paul wants people to pray that Onesiphorus be granted the mercy to find Paul, even though this event happened in the past and Onesiphorus is now dead.

U-2012> The Deutero-Canonical books were rejected by all because they were not written by prophets nor cited.

Then why were they contained in the original KJV.

As an aside, NONE of the proofs that I have given for Purgatory on this thread have been from any Deutero-Canonical books.

A clear reading of the test is Paul is hoping
that YHvH would have granted salvation to Onesiphorus
on the day they had met in Rome when he was alive.

The three proof texts offered were Eisegesis not Exegesis

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Alex Murphy]

There's a significant difference between hearing and reading....

There is indeed. But the oft-repeated charge is that we do not read the Bible. And it was that charge which was being addressed.

Get Cracking, Catholics!
A formative, family-friendly factoid from a recent study or survey in the news.
November 19-25, 2006 Issue
Posted 11/16/06 at 8:00 AM

According to a study released in September by Baylor University’s Institute for Studies of Religion, evangelical Protestants are a whopping eight times more likely than Catholics to read the Bible on a weekly basis. Of course, the survey only looked at private Bible reading; it did not take into account the Scripture passages Catholics take in at every Mass. Still, we tip our hats to our separated brothers and sisters in Christ for their zeal for the Word of God.

Related threads:
Synod: Christianity not a 'Religion of the Book'
Yesterday saw...a forceful plea from a key papal advisor [Bishop Salvatore Fisichella, the rector of the Lateran University and President of the Pontifical Academy for Life] to reject the idea of Christianity as a “Religion of the Book.”

Synod to Focus on Proper Use of Scripture
The Church should combat widespread "Biblical illiteracy" among the Catholic faithful, Archbishop Eterovic said

A Literate Church: The state of Catholic Bible study today
...while fewer believers know much about the Bible, one-third of Americans continue to believe that it is literally true, something organizers of the Synod on the Word of God called a dangerous form of fundamentalism that is “winning more and more adherents…even among Catholics.” Such literalism, the synod’s preparatory document said, “demands an unshakable adherence to rigid doctrinal points of view and imposes, as the only source of teaching for Christian life and salvation, a reading of the Bible which rejects all questioning and any kind of critical research”....
....The flip side of this embarrassment is the presumption among many Catholics that they “get” the Bible at Mass, along with everything else they need for their spiritual lives. The postconciliar revolution in liturgy greatly expanded the readings, with a three-year cycle in the vernacular that for the first time included Old Testament passages. Given that exposure, many think they do not need anything else. As Mr. McMahon put it, “The majority still say you go to Mass, you get your ticket punched, and that’s it for the week.”

Barna Survey: The God Gap in American Politics Alive and Well

By the numbers:

Percentage of "liberals" who:
33%: read the Bible, other than at church events, during the past week
35%: attended a religious service during the past week
76%: prayed to God, other than at a religious service, during the past week
39%: shared their religious beliefs with others, during the past year (among the born again Christians interviewed)
06%: have ever participated in a short-term missions trip, either within the U.S. or in another country

Percentage of "conservatives" who:
57%: read the Bible, other than at church events, during the past week
62%: attended a religious service during the past week
91%: prayed to God, other than at a religious service, during the past week
56%: shared their religious beliefs with others, during the past year (among the born again Christians interviewed)
12%: have ever participated in a short-term missions trip, either within the U.S. or in another country

Percentage of "liberals" who believe:
27%: "the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches"
17%: that Satan is real
23%: have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs with others
54%: their religious faith is very important in their life
23%: a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by doing good deeds or being a good person
38%: faith is becoming an increasingly important moral guide in their life
37%: their church is very important in helping them find direction and fulfillment in life
33%: Jesus Christ did not commit sins during His time on earth
43%: their primary purpose in life is to love God with all their heart, mind, strength and soul

Percentage of "conservatives" who believe:
63%: "the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches"
36%: that Satan is real
48%: have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs with others
82%: their religious faith is very important in their life
37%: a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by doing good deeds or being a good person
70%: faith is becoming an increasingly important moral guide in their life
62%: their church is very important in helping them find direction and fulfillment in life
55%: Jesus Christ did not commit sins during His time on earth
76%: their primary purpose in life is to love God with all their heart, mind, strength and soul

[narses]

Of course, the survey only looked at private Bible reading; it did not take into account the Scripture passages Catholics take in at every Mass.

[wagglebee]

A clear reading of the test is Paul is hoping that YHvH would have granted salvation to Onesiphorus on the day they had met in Rome when he was alive.

Why then is Saint Paul asking the Saint Timothy to pray for Onesiphorus? If the event has already transpired, no amount of prayer can change it.

[Iscool]

10-4. Certainly.

However "imputing" or "calling" (λογιζομαι note the similarity to λογος under the family of λεγω) the desert wet without some resulting change in the desert (whether from rain or from something else) seems problematic.

So it's your contention that there is no fruit of the Spirit i those who accept that their righteousness was inputed from God, and sin was not inputed??? I think not...

But I'm still curious to your thoughts on where the rain came from to get your desert wet since it was not inputed from God...

[Uri’el-2012]

Why then is Saint Paul asking the Saint Timothy to pray for Onesiphorus? If the event has already transpired, no amount of prayer can change it.

The plain text:

16 The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus,
for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains;

17 but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me--

18 the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day-
- and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus.

Sorry I read only the plain text.

Paul asks that YHvH would have granted that Onesiphorus been given
mercy on the day, when he, Onesiphorus, searched for Paul in Rome.

As Peter notes, Paul is sometime hard to understand.

NAU 2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his letters,
speaking in them of these things,
in which are some things hard to understand,
which the untaught and unstable distort,
as they do also the rest of the Scriptures,
to their own destruction.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Heliand]

There is nothing in that article I disagree with as a Catholic.

I am still struck by the absence of condemnation of the distinctive doctrines of Catholicism in the Synodicon despite the later polemics on both sides, especially from ~1480 onwards to the time of Pius XII. It is like the same circumspect attitude taken by the Catholic Church regarding Greek practices of ecclesiastical divorce.

[wagglebee]

Paul asks that YHvH would have granted that Onesiphorus been given mercy on the day, when he, Onesiphorus, searched for Paul in Rome.

So, Saint Paul is praying about something that has already happened and no longer bears any significance?

Isn't YOPIOS a magnificent invention, it allows the "interpreter" to dismiss everything they don't like as insignificant.

As Peter notes, Paul is sometime hard to understand.

Which is why I really on two thousand years of Church teaching and ignore the seemingly endless new conclusions that are reached by those employing the 16th century man-made invention of YOPIOS.

[Uri’el-2012]

U-2012>As Peter notes, Paul is sometime hard to understand.

Which is why I really on two thousand years of Church teaching and ignore the seemingly endless new conclusions that are reached by those employing the 16th century man-made invention of YOPIOS.

I use the First Century for interpretation.

I consider nothing after the book of Revelation.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Mad Dawg]

I think you got off on the wrong foot about what I am saying. In the desert analogy, taken you may note from the Bible, I was saying MERE Imputation ALONE was inadequate to explain, if you want it this way, the moisture of the desert. There had to be some REAL moisture.

What I'm going after here is the snow-covered dunghill analogy. I think if God calls you righteous then there is some righteousness being bestowed, not just a changing of which column one is listed under.

[wagglebee]

I use the First Century for interpretation. I consider nothing after the book of Revelation.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that a single person had even seen the totality of what we know as the New Testament in the first century and it is certain that many in the first century would have been reading what the Church later rejected from the canon of Scripture.

[Kolokotronis]

“It is like the same circumspect attitude taken by the Catholic Church regarding Greek practices of ecclesiastical divorce.”

The Greek practice with regard to divorce goes back to, at the most recent, the 5th century. I must say, however, that I can’t see any reason for Rome to be circumspect about our practices concerning ecclesiastical divorce. perhaps it has to do with the different understandings of the Mystery itself.

[Mad Dawg]

Okay, Guys: Could we, the unwashed and ignorant, have a little more here? Open up the thinking, please.