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Southern Baptists reprimand top official over Trayvon Martin remarks (Richard Land-loses radio show)
CNN ^ | June 1, 2012 | Dan Gilgoff

Posted on 06/01/2012 12:50:28 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

The country’s largest evangelical Christian denomination on Friday announced it is reprimanding one of its top officials over comments he made regarding the Trayvon Martin case, pledging to cancel the official’s national radio show.

The trustee committee of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission announced two reprimands on Friday for Richard Land, who leads public policy efforts for the Southern Baptists, according to the official press arm.

The first reprimand was for remarks Land - one of the country's most powerful evangelical leaders - made about the Martin case. The second was because Land lifted some remarks from another source on his radio show without using attribution.

The commission will move to terminate Land’s radio program, “Richard Land Live!” because of the controversy, the Baptist Press reported.

In March, Land spoke of African-American activists and the Rev. Al Sharpton as “racial ambulance chasers” in the Martin case, in which the 17-year-old was shot to death in Florida by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman.

“When there is violence it’s going to be Jesse Jackson’s fault,” Land said on his show, according to the Religion News Service. “It’s going to be Al Sharpton’s fault. It’s going to be Louis Farrakhan’s fault, and to a certain degree it’s going to be President Obama’s fault.”

On Friday, the trustee executive committee said in a statement that Land’s comments were “very hurtful and offensive to the Trayvon Martin family and too many in the African-American community...

(Excerpt) Read more at religion.blogs.cnn.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: achillwind; blacklisted; censorship; georgezimmerman; jessejackson; politicalcorrectness; trayvon; trayvonmartin
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To: F15Eagle

And what does that have to do with the SBC condemning free speech?


51 posted on 06/01/2012 6:03:03 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D

It has to do with you making sweeping general statements about all Baptists.

Whom you admit you have a problem with.


52 posted on 06/01/2012 6:04:31 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: F15Eagle

I only have a problem with their hypocrisy. I was married in a Baptist church 34 years ago next Sunday. I do not dislike Baptists, just hypocrisy.


53 posted on 06/01/2012 6:07:51 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D

OK. Then why not ask for #21 to be removed?

Since it makes only Baptists look bad.


54 posted on 06/01/2012 6:09:50 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: F15Eagle

It is an old joke that displays their hypocrisy. They condemn the use of alcohol on minute, but use it when they think nobody is looking.


55 posted on 06/01/2012 6:15:12 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D

Hypocrisy is pandemic, and it runs to one degree or another in all, Christian or not.


56 posted on 06/01/2012 6:17:47 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: F15Eagle

I agree.


57 posted on 06/01/2012 6:19:14 PM PDT by John D
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To: SoFloFreeper

Looks that way, doesn’t it?


58 posted on 06/01/2012 6:22:19 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Ich habe keinen Konig aber Gott)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I’d support firing him for his apology:

“First, I want to confess my insensitivity to the Trayvon Martin family for my imbalanced characterization of their son which was based on news reports, not personal knowledge. My heart truly goes out to a family whose lives have been turned upside down by the shocking death of a beloved child. I can only imagine their sense of loss and deeply regret any way in which my language may have contributed to their pain.

“Second, I am here to confess that I impugned the motives of President Obama and the reverends Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. It was unchristian and unwise for me to have done so. God alone is the searcher of men’s hearts. I cannot know what motivated them in their comments in this case. I have sent personal letters of apology to each of them asking for them to forgive me. I continue to pray for them regularly, and for our president daily.

“Third, I do not believe that crime statistics should in any way justify viewing a person of another race as a threat. I own my earlier words about statistics; and I regret that they may suggest that racial profiling is justifiable. I have been an outspoken opponent of profiling and was grief-stricken to learn that comments I had made were taken as a defense of what I believe is both unchristian and unconstitutional. I share the dream of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., that all men, women, boys, and girls would be judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin. Racial profiling is a heinous injustice. I should have been more careful in my choice of words.

“Fourth, I must clarify another poor choice of words. I most assuredly do not believe American racism is a ‘myth’ in the sense that it is imaginary or fictitious. It is all too real and all too insidious. My reference to myth in this case was to a story used to push a political agenda. Because I believe racism is such a grievous sin, I stand firmly against its politicization. Racial justice is a non-partisan ideal and should be embraced by both sides of the political aisle...”

http://bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=37795

Weenie.


59 posted on 06/01/2012 6:23:01 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
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To: John D

No they don’t, but you seem to post that a lot, I’m not used to seeing someone focus so much against the people who attend Southern Baptist churches.

I can’t help but wonder why that church? Are you some other religion, or belong to a different denomination, how did it get to be about the actual individuals that make up the Southern Baptists, the best conservatives in America, the heart of the Christian vote?


60 posted on 06/01/2012 6:33:59 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: John D

I’m Southern Baptist, & the national leadership has been trending liberal for a long time (ever read the Baptist Standard? horrifying!), but the way our church works is each local congregation is fairly independent. The ones I have involvement with in Houston are conservative.

Alcohol - I know only a handfull of Southern Baptists who do not drink alcohol at all, but all agree it is a sin to get drunk.

Smoking - frowned upon by all Southern Baptists I know.

Dancing - the churches I am involved with have dances, sometimes even on church property.

Interrupting the sermon with an amen - this is appreciated by the pastors & teachers, trust me. It’s part of our tradition.

Handling the truth - God’s Word is the truth, & the Southern Baptist preachers & teachers I know handle it rightly.

Forcing our ideals on everyone else - if by that you mean voting for conservatives who will hopefully enact conservative policies, then yes we sure do. I don’t know any Southern Baptists who advocate for the return of Prohibition, in fact I know a few Libertarian ones who would like us to legalize some drugs that are currently illegal.

Hypocrisy - every time I do not live up to the high ideals set by the example of Jesus Christ, I am being a hypocrite, so that would be every minute of every day.

Perhaps because he is from my denomination, I notice Land on some of the Sunday morning political shows every now & then, & I think he often does a decent job articulating conservative beliefs.


61 posted on 06/01/2012 6:41:00 PM PDT by TropicanaRose
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To: Mr Rogers

You do understand that that was written for him, don’t you?


62 posted on 06/01/2012 6:58:42 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Ich habe keinen Konig aber Gott)
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To: TropicanaRose

“I’m Southern Baptist”

Me too.


63 posted on 06/01/2012 7:10:37 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: DariusBane
“End times?
Men have always been fools.
The world has always been dangerous, corrupt, violent, diseased. Nothing new under the sun.”

Very true, and point well taken.

However, it's alarming to me how many people who most definetly know better, and especially people of faith, fall victim to and embrace political correctness.

I do not believe that anyone who has the Holy Ghost can stray that far from the truth. Fascism and lies are anathema to Christianity. So is a keen sense of justice and fairness.

It just makes me wonder.

64 posted on 06/01/2012 7:23:37 PM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Forget the GOP and build the Constitution Party, because the status quo is no longer the way to go.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Maybe. Maybe not. But he agreed to its release...


65 posted on 06/01/2012 7:30:08 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Black SBC head named to be all cozy

what did they expect

silly crackers are so nauseating


66 posted on 06/01/2012 8:37:55 PM PDT by wardaddy (the GOP are cowards)
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To: F15Eagle; John D

I think I understand now, Mormons good, the Christians/Southern Baptists most likely to stand up to them, evil. John D has a lot of posts along these lines.

EACH QUOTE IS FROM A DIFFERENT POST, AND THERE ARE MANY MORE.

“Attending church does not mean you are a practicing Mormon. There are many Baptists down here in GA who attend church but they do not follow all their rules. Way too many liquor stores that are doing well not to have any of those Baptists frequenting them.”

“The Mitt haters hate him because he is Mormon. They know nothing about Mormons or their religion. They are just so ignorant that they have to depend on their Baptist preachers to tell them who to vote for, or in this case who to oppose.”

“That and the bible thumpers also do not understand what it means to be a Mormon. They believe if you ain’t Baptist you ain’t Christian.”

“Be careful, these Mitt haters do not want to see facts. They know he is a Mormon, and their preachers have told them that is all they need to know.”

“MOST Romney haters are one issue voters, anti-abortion. They are not concerned about national security or the economy. Mitt has done very well in private life, and he saved the Olympics. He may not be as anti-abortion as the bible thumpers would like but he would be a very good choice.”

“Understanding what the Bible says is very subjective. One person may take what it says completely different from another. My problem with many of the bible thumping Baptists is that they only see one way of interpreting it and if you do not see it the way they do you ain’t a Christian.”

“We may have many bigoted bible thumpers down here but we have many intelligent pro Americans also. Romney is the best choice for McCain.”

“Picking Romney will help in ALL parts of America. The only areas where it will hurt are in the bible thumping bigoted areas, and they will go McCain anyway.”

“I am sure the millions of conservatives he attracts will far out weigh the few bigoted bible thumpers who feel like you.”

“Mitt would be his best choice. He is about the only reason I could EVER vote for McCain.”

“There is a difference between dingy harry and Mitt. Mitt is a practicing Mormon. The type who have very high morals, and the dingy harry type who do not practice and have no morals.”

“If they were mooslime the CPS would have overlooked the whole thing. CPS is going after them because they are Mormon.”


67 posted on 06/01/2012 8:38:55 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
It's starting to look like the fix is in. The judge who revoked Zimmerman's bail may have been responding to demands from Crump.

Ted Baxter has been pro-Crump and pro-Trayvon's parents all along and has always garbled the known facts in the case. Sean Hannity at first was interviewing on his TV show some friends of Zimmerman who were giving the other side, but he seems to have shut up or lost interest. Maybe Greta is still willing to be even-handed. Tonight it seemed that all she wanted to cover was the Wisconsin vote (she is from Wisconsin)--I didn't watch it all so I don't know if she spent any time on today's developments.

68 posted on 06/01/2012 9:27:42 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: ansel12

Thanks for the info


69 posted on 06/02/2012 12:38:39 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: ansel12; F15Eagle; dixiechick2000; TropicanaRose; Black Agnes; WKB
That goofball poster also stated this week that Mark Furman planted the OJ glove.

I think says all you need to know...on that freeper

A 1998 class.....hard to figure......but just gleaned that straight away

SBC here too.......but not chauvinistic about it really....a few other Prod sects i like.....PCA.....SOUTHERN COC.....MOSYNOD.....SM.....ASSEMBLY OF GOD.....PRIMITIVE BAPTIST

i am a bad man but i attend a fine conservative praise oriented SBC church headed by a culture warrior pastor who preaches soul nourishment and takes the battle to progressives unflinchingly

Using the hypocrisy angle is the oldest tool in the book to attack scripture based literal protestant faiths....as though imperfection of the congregation disproves the word of God....there is a lost irony there

70 posted on 06/02/2012 1:20:08 AM PDT by wardaddy (the GOP are cowards)
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To: ansel12
I can’t help but wonder why that church?

Not the church, just the hypocrisy, and the church trying to dictate the behaviors of people of other faiths.
71 posted on 06/02/2012 11:24:28 AM PDT by John D
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To: ansel12

IS there anything to disagree with in any of those posts?


72 posted on 06/02/2012 11:34:52 AM PDT by John D
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To: John D

As post 67 proves, you are a Mormon and a romneybot warring against conservative Christians and Christianity.

The entire left, the media, and the Mormon cult all see Southern Baptists as their mortal enemy.


73 posted on 06/02/2012 11:39:47 AM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: ansel12
As post 67 proves, you are a Mormon

Wrong, as I have posted several times I am Lutheran.

and a romneybot

Wrong again. I have stated many times I supported Cain, then Newt, and then anybody but Cut and Run Paul.

The entire left, the media, and the Mormon cult all see Southern Baptists as their mortal enemy.


I think you have gotten that backward. It is the entire left, the media, and Baptists that see Mormons as their mortal enemy.

I have lived in both Mormon strongholds (Scottsdale, AZ) and Baptist strongholds (GA). Both religions are anti-alcohol. The difference is Mormons are not afraid of it, and live by what they profess. They do not drink, they do tithe, they do take care of others who are less fortunate. Most Baptists on the other hand are afraid alcohol will destroy their church, and do not live by what they preach.

I am not anti-Baptist, I was married in a Baptist church, I married a Baptist, an ex Baptist now, but a Baptist at the time. Most of my friends are Baptists. I just do not agree with the hypocrisy. Before they condemn Mormons they should take a good look at themselves.
74 posted on 06/02/2012 12:50:11 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D

Too bad your hypocritical Lutheran church declares that Mormons are not Christians, I wonder if you know that?

I wonder why you spend so much time posting as an anti-Christian Mormon and so little as a pro-Christian “Lutheran”?

The fact that you would claim not to be anti-Baptist on this thread shows your mental state.

The fact that you claim to be some last minute Romney supporter shows the level of your honesty.

“”To: Sir Francis Dashwood
McCain wants more amnesty for illegals, Julie-Annie wants to give them welfare and Hickabee wants to give both.

And Paul wants to give the country to the terrorists.

Romney is the ONLY option.
14 posted on Sat Jan 26 2008 08:55:13 GMT-0800 (Pacific Standard Time) by John D””


75 posted on 06/02/2012 1:31:55 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: ansel12
Too bad your hypocritical Lutheran church declares that Mormons are not Christians, I wonder if you know that?

I know that, but I also do not agree with everything the Lutheran church says. Just like I do not agree with every Republican platform. I just agree with more of them than any other.
I believe in a persons deeds. I also believe the supreme being is looking at the same thing.

I wonder why you spend so much time posting as an anti-Christian Mormon

Even if you do not believe Mormons are not theoretically Christian, I see it hard to say they are anti-Christian. It is the Baptists who attack Mormons, not the other way around.

The fact that you would claim not to be anti-Baptist on this thread shows your mental state

As I have stated many times, I am not anti-Baptist, just against hypocrisy. If you feel I am anti-Baptist it must be because you also realize how hypocritical they are.

“”To: Sir Francis Dashwood McCain wants more amnesty for illegals, Julie-Annie wants to give them welfare and Hickabee wants to give both. And Paul wants to give the country to the terrorists. Romney is the ONLY option. 14 posted on Sat Jan 26 2008 08:55:13 GMT-0800 (Pacific Standard Time) by John D””


By that time in the race, like now, Romney was and is the best choice left. Do you disagree with anything I said at that time? Who was better at that time? We got McCain and look what that got us.
76 posted on 06/02/2012 2:04:00 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D

Yeah, you are Mormon, even going against the Lutheran church to defend and disguise Mormonism, and calling Christian churches anti-Christian for recognizing that Mormonism is not Christian.

The Mormon cult was founded to be an anti-Christian religion, Mormonism is anti-Christian, Baptists and Lutherans are dedicated Christians.

You were backing Bishop Romney in 2008, and you support him today.


77 posted on 06/02/2012 2:18:16 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: ansel12
Yeah, you are Mormon, even going against the Lutheran church to defend and disguise Mormonism, and calling Christian churches anti-Christian for recognizing that Mormonism is not Christian.

When did I EVER call the Lutheran church anti-Christian? I think you are losing it. Your hatred of the Mormon religion is driving you crazy. Calm down and take a chill pill. I am not Mormon, I do not have the dedication to their religion or their dedication to the betterment of mankind that they do. I wish I did but I do not.

You were backing Bishop Romney in 2008, and you support him today.


At that point in time as now, he is the best we have left. Who right now, that has a chance is better?
78 posted on 06/02/2012 2:30:40 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D
Even if you do not believe Mormons are not theoretically Christian, I see it hard to say they are anti-Christian.

Lutherans attack Mormons as not being Christian, and Mormons attack all Christian churches, it is why the cult was created.

Next to the sex and money aspects of Mormonism, it was founded to destroy and replace Christianity in America, the Lutheran church included.

You go against the Lutheran/Southern Baptist Christians and choose to defend Mormonism over Christianity.

You have supported Romney in every election cycle, both 2008 and 2012.

Romney even replaced Giuliani for you.

79 posted on 06/02/2012 2:50:48 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: ansel12
Mormons attack all Christian churches, it is why the cult was created.

Where and when have Mormons ever attacked any Christian Church? It is the Baptists who are constantly attacking Mormons. They fear them because Mormons stand up for what they believe and are not hypocrites. They say they are against the use of alcohol and they actually do refrain from the use, unlike Baptists. They actually tithe. They go on missions where they save their own money to be used on their missions and help people in need.

You go against the Lutheran/Southern Baptist Christians and choose to defend Mormonism over Christianity.


I do not agree that Mormons are not Christians. I believe that if a person believes in Christ they are a Christian. Mormons do more to help others than any other religion I know of. What does the Baptist church do. Preach fire and brimestone and to fear God. I believe it is better to love and do his deeds than to fear him. I would much rather have my children love me and do what is good than to fear me.

You have supported Romney in every election cycle, both 2008 and 2012. Romney even replaced Giuliani for you.

Yes when he was the best candidate left. Who would you have chosen? The crazy, hot tempered, ineffective McCain, the pardon wielding Huckster, or the anti-American blame America first terrorist loving Paul? Who was the best candidate then? Who is the best now? I wish we still had Cain or Newt, but we do not so we have to support the best candidate left.
80 posted on 06/02/2012 3:40:05 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D; ansel12
Where and when have Mormons ever attacked any Christian Church?

First of all, every time one of the 52,000 mormon missionaries tells someone that the only way to salvation is to become mormon and take part in arcane temple rituals, that's an attack. Secondly, every time one of the 52,000 mormon missionaries claims that there is a "restored gospel" it's an attack on Christianity.....AND, how could you have missed all THIS?

"Christians— those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 89


Prophet John Taylor (1808 - 1887):


"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 167

"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 127

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225


Apostle Orson Pratt (1811 - 1881):


"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent."

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of Christian Churches ... But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance"

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 18, p. 172
“This class of men, calling themselves Christian, uniting with the various forms of the pagan religion, adopting many of their ceremonies and institutions, became very popular, and finally some of the pagans embraced Christianity and were placed, as it were, upon the throne, and what they termed Christianity became very popular indeed. How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 14, p. 346

“But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be. They say, "We have built chapels unto the name of the Lord; we call our Churches Christian Churches, they are called the Church of Christ, St. John's Church, St. Paul's Church, St. Peter's Church, and after others of the ancient Apostles;" and one who had never studied the pattern which God has given of the Christian Church would almost really believe that they are Christian Churches. But there has been a long apostacy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance, and they are represented in the revelations of St. John as a woman sitting upon a scarlet colored beast, having a golden cup in her hand, full of filthiness and abominations, full of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; that in her forehead there was a name written—"Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots." This kind of a church has existed in great abundance, for as John the Revelator says, she was to have her dominion upon many waters, and she was to make all nations drunken with the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 18, p. 172

“Q. After the Church of Christ fled from earth to heaven, what was left? A. A set of wicked Apostates, murderers, and idolaters, who, after having made war with the saints, and overcome them, and destroyed them out of the earth, were left to follow the wicked imaginations of their own corrupt hearts, and to build up churches by human authority, and to follow after the cunning craftiness of uninspired men; having no Apostle, Prophet, or Revelator to inquire of God for them: and thus, because of wickedness, the Church, and Priesthood, and gifts, and ordinances and blessings of the everlasting Gospel, were taken from the earth, and reserved in heaven until the fulness of times, when it was predicted that they should again be restored among men to continue until the end should come.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, Chapter 16, p. 205


Prophet Wilford Woodruff (1807 - 1898):


"The Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called"

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 196


Apostle George Q. Cannon (1827 - 1901):


"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon."

- Apostle George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p. 324
Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46
--------------

"...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization [Christianity], founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was."

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13
---------------


Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176
---------------

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199
---------------

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 171


So, are you saying you never heard of any of this?

Additionally, you make a personal attack in your post against a Christian church...."They fear them because Mormons stand up for what they believe and are not hypocrites. They say they are against the use of alcohol and they actually do refrain from the use, unlike Baptists.

81 posted on 06/02/2012 4:16:24 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The inability or unwillingness to reality test beliefs is okay for my plumber but not for POTUS.)
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To: John D

Before I answer your rant, first answer this.

When you say mormons beleive in Christ, which Christ are you talking about?

The lds say this: “In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.’” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)

The lds chirst is a created being.

The lds christ is the brother of satan.

The lds christ is not sufficient for salvation, as the lds salvation must be earned, which includes tithing (that is forced tithing)

The lds christ was conceived by the lds god having intercourse with Mary.

The lds christ preformed his first miracle (water to wine), at his own wedding, one on many.

The lds christ paid the price in the garden, the cross is secondary.

The lds believe they will become a god, everything they do is working to that goal.
(“Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligencies [sic] that dwell in eternity.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 160, September 2, 1860)

So John, what Christ do you beleive in the Biblical Christ or the lds christ?


82 posted on 06/02/2012 4:22:26 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: greyfoxx39

And all of the quotes were all made well over a century ago. There are also Baptists who insist John The Baptist was the first original Baptist. There are also those who insist the Baptist faith was the first Protestant religion.


83 posted on 06/02/2012 4:23:38 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D
And all of the quotes were all made well over a century ago.

McKinky didn't die until 1985. As to John the Baptist, being the "original Baptist"...small potatoes when mormons claim THIS.

Through the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood, Church leaders guide the Church and direct the preaching of the gospel throughout the world. In the ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood, “the power of godliness is manifest” (D&C 84:20). This greater priesthood was given to Adam and has been on the earth whenever the Lord has revealed His gospel. It was taken from the earth during the Great Apostasy, but it was restored in 1829, when the Apostles Peter, James, and John conferred it upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

Direct from LDS.org HERE

84 posted on 06/02/2012 4:35:20 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The inability or unwillingness to reality test beliefs is okay for my plumber but not for POTUS.)
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To: John D

Why does the Lutheran church embrace Baptists as fellow Christians and recognize their baptism if they want to join, yet force Mormons to become Christians and be baptized if they want to become Lutheran?

Do you think you are doing God’s work by attacking the Christian Baptist church, refusing to even discuss your own claimed Lutheran church’s religious teachings on Mormonism, all while rabidly defending the aggressive door to door Christian converting, antiChristian religion of Mormonism?


85 posted on 06/02/2012 4:37:36 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: John D
Here is a statement from WELS, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod.
Notice that they link to a site so that you can learn how to witness to Mormons, or 'attack' them in your view.

Lutheran Questions and Answers

MORMON BELIEFS

I am a Lutheran, but my aunt's boyfriend is a Mormon. What are the big differences between the two religions? I just want to have a better understanding of what he believes.

Answer: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the official name for Mormonism. Their television commercials are very appealing and family oriented, but Mormonism cannot be considered a Christian denomination.

The Latter Day Saints deny the scriptural doctrine of the Trinity. They teach that there are many gods and human beings can become gods themselves through a kind of spiritual evolution. Mormons are taught "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become." Mormonism denies the scriptural teaching of justification by grace alone through faith in Jesus and teaches a system of salvation by works. They teach that people are born inherently good and have the freedom to make the right decisions. They believe that people progress by making wise use of this freedom.

Mormons practice "baptism for the dead." They believe that the spirits of the dead can accept Mormonism in the spirit world, but since they don't have a body they cannot be baptized. Since Mormon baptism is essential for spiritual progression, Mormons can be baptized in the place of a departed relative. This is the reason why Mormonism places such an emphasis on genealogy.

Mormons teach that there are three spirit kingdoms to which the spirits of the dead can go. The Celestial Kingdom is the highest kingdom and is reserved for faithful Mormons and those who die before the age of eight. The Terrestrial Kingdom is for moral non-Mormons and less "valiant" Mormons. The Telestial Kingdom is the place where most people will go after suffering for their sins. This is the kingdom of the least glory.

The Mormons accept the following as scripture: The Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. They also consider the words of their living prophets to be scripture.

For more information about Mormonism and witnessing to Mormons visit the Speaking in Love & Truth to Mormons Web site.

86 posted on 06/02/2012 5:17:46 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: greyfoxx39
So, are you saying you never heard of any of this?

Yes, I have never heard of any of those, but I am not a biblical scholar. I do not know what was written before or after any of those excerpts. There are many excerpts in the Bible that leave me thinking also.
What I am saying is that just because a person follows the Mormon religion does not mean he does not follow the ways of Christ.
When I lived in AZ I knew many Mormons, and they were the most honest hardest working people you will find. I worked for one and when I wanted to go out on my own and start my own business he backed me, not with just moral support, but with financial support.
There is a Mormon mission in the small town my mom lives. Before my dad died Mormons would always come around and do anything they could to help them out(from chopping wood for their wood stove to shoveling snow. They still do help my mom.
I do not think there is a more caring group of people on the earth. They follow the ways of Christ more than any other group I can think of. Why do the Baptists fear them?
87 posted on 06/02/2012 5:21:12 PM PDT by John D
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To: ansel12
Here is a statement from WELS, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod.

The ELCA does not even recognize the same beliefs as the WEL.
88 posted on 06/02/2012 5:26:06 PM PDT by John D
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To: ansel12
I am not a scholar on the teachings of Mormonism. I am not capable of knowing if what you are saying is true or not, and I do not have the determination to find out. All I know is that Mormons are the most caring, honest, hard working people around. This thread started out about the hypocrisy with the SBC. The SBC wants freedom of speech, but when an announcer discloses the activities of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson they want to silence him.
I am not afraid of a Mormon, why are the Baptists?
89 posted on 06/02/2012 5:37:09 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D; greyfoxx39
And all of the quotes were all made well over a century ago.

And those 100+ year old statement formed the foundation for mormon teaching. You want something more modern - “Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46 “... all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.... in large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed the Unknown Gods.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374-375 Now your ignorance is confounded in that 50,000 some ought missionaries go door to door with a message that all churches but the mormon church are completely apostate. You don't get more recent than today.

90 posted on 06/02/2012 5:40:18 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: John D

Your relation to God seems to be merely that of an atheist lawyer who wants to argue for anti-Christian Mormonism while not getting any Christianity on himself.

This is from the ELCA, it is timidly written, but it does cover the point.

” Although Mormons may use water — and lots of it — and while they may say “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,” their teaching about the nature of God is substantially different from that of orthodox, creedal Christianity. Because the Mormon understanding of the Word of God is not the same as the Christian understanding, it is correct to say that Christian Baptism has not taken place. A former Mormon joining an ELCA congregation may be offered Christian Baptism (not rebaptism).
This answer poses a difficult pastoral question. If a former Mormon is anxious to embrace orthodox Christian teaching and practice and is looking to make a radical break from former memberships, then the invitation to Christian Baptism is likely to be welcomed. On the other hand, former Mormons seeking to maintain continuity with Mormonism may see the suggestion that they are not baptized or have not been Christian as an attack on who they have understood themselves to be.”
http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Worship/Learning-Center/FAQs/Rebaptism.aspx


91 posted on 06/02/2012 6:21:07 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: Godzilla; John D; greyfoxx39

An entirely new religion made up so recently that it is only 70 years older than some people who are alive today, and already it’s defenders are complaining that the documents and founders statements from the first 60 or 70 years are already outdated and no longer relevant, ‘please don’t use those we have new stuff’.


92 posted on 06/02/2012 6:29:23 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: John D; ansel12
Where and when have Mormons ever attacked any Christian Church?

Romney has endorsed the "faith" of his fathers...per Romney, how he "endeavors to live by it" and "be true" to those "beliefs."

So, since Mitt wants to inspire us Christians to vote for him...wooing us...I'm reminded of that one speed-dating commercial (actually a cell phone commercial) where a woman is able to quickly research on her speedy cell phone the guy's fave pick-up lines, etc...

IOW, what Mitt might say to you face-to-face is not what Mitt's "fathers" and "fathers in the faith" have taught him through the years about us Christians.

In the previous post, I mentioned Mormon leaders' Joseph Smith, George Q. Cannon, and Bruce McConkie...and I'll cite some same & additional quotes from them below so that people can glimpse a proper "survey" of Mormon leader opinions about us...

But please read to the end...so that you know then that these supposed "revelations from the Mormon god" aren't just applied to "yesteryear" Christians:

Joseph Smith himself:

Joseph Smith, Jr.: “…all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels.” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60).

Late 19th century:
George Q. Cannon, member of First Presidency with four different Lds "prophets": "AFTER the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, pg.324).

Less-than-50 years ago:

Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: McConkie says all non-Mormon churches are "...the great apostate church" [that's us -- the Christian church] "as the anti-christ...This great antichrist...is the church of the devil." ("Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p.40)

Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "What is the church of the devil in our day, and what is the seat of her power?…It is all the systems, BOTH Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel…. It is communism, it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in ALL its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini" (Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55).

Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is EVERY CHURCH except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)

Note, per Mormon doctrine, the "only true and living church on the face of the earth" is the Mormon church (D&C 1:30).

What about OFFICIAL MORMON CHURCH TEACHINGS NOW ON CHRISTIANS AND CHRISTIANITY?

WHAT ARE THEY TEACHING THEIR COLLEGE AND HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS NOW?

Q How do we know that the official Lds church approves of McConkie's interpretation given above?

A:

#1...he was an "apostle";
#2, the Doctrinal New Testament Commentary was cited by the official Mormon church as a commentary to 1 Nephi 14:10 for its widely distributed teachings of college students: The church of JC LDS: Seminaries and Institutes of Religion: Book of Mormon Student Manual: Chapter 4: 1Nephi 11–14: Notes and Commentary

* Note...McConkie's resource was also cited among study guides commonly used in the Mormon church as published by Cedar Fort out of Springville, Utah...in these two 2007 books:
* Randal S. Chase, Making Precious Things Plain: A Book of Mormon Study Guide: Volume 1: 1 Nephi-Alma 16 Cedar Fort, Springville, UT, 2007 p. 40
* K. Douglas Bassett, PhD, Doctrinal Insights to the Book of Mormon: Vol. 1: 1 Nephi through 2 Nephi Cedar Fort, Springville, UT 2007, pp. 62-63

Also, less than 30 years ago -- Official Lds church magazine, Ensign:
The “man of sin,” generally equated with Satan, would exalt himself over all that is divine and assume the place of God in the Church. Of historical and theological significance is the fact that in Paul’s prophecy the church structure survives. But God is not at its head, making that church—following the appearance in it of Satan—no longer the church of God....How appropriate, therefore, is Paul’s description of him sitting in the place of God in the church of the apostasía. Kent P. Jackson, Signs of the Early Apostasy, Ensign, December 1984 Signs of the Early Apostasy

This BYU professor is commenting on 2 Thess. 2:1-12 here...which Christian commentators reference as future. Lds leaders constantly reference 2 Thess. 2:1-12 as past tense -- evidence of the great apostasy...Jackson calls it a "drastic" apostasy. Lds doctrine is that it was total or all but a handful...and those handful were never "public."

Q What other Institute teachings are there about Christians currently taught to Mormon college students:
A:
* A universal [absolute world-wide] apostasy occurred...“...an absolute apostasy of the Church...” [Lds "apostle" James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ] {See this & similar quotes here: The Apostasy [What Lds believe re: Christians: Label us 'apostates' like Islam calls us 'infidels']}

Q And what does the Lds church officially teach its high school students...?

A The “church of the devil” does not refer to a specific church but to any person, group, organization, or philosophy that works against the Church of Jesus Christ and the salvation of the children of God.
Source: Official Mormon 'Seminary' (high school) teachings on 1 Nephi 14

93 posted on 06/02/2012 7:21:28 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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Comment #94 Removed by Moderator

Comment #95 Removed by Moderator

Comment #96 Removed by Moderator

To: Godzilla

Bruce R. McConkie really swallowed it hook, line and sinker, didn’t he?

Or he just decided to push it to the max, what with him being married to a daughter of Joseph Fielding Smith (IIRC).

McConkie pushed Adam-Ondi-Ahman as if it were “truth” as well.


97 posted on 06/02/2012 11:18:09 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: wardaddy; John D

“Using the hypocrisy angle is the oldest tool in the book to attack scripture based literal protestant faiths....as though imperfection of the congregation disproves the word of God....there is a lost irony there.”

No one is perfect, except the Lord.

After backtracking through the posts, John D certainly has some anger issues with us.

Other than that, I have nothing else to say.


98 posted on 06/03/2012 12:31:23 AM PDT by dixiechick2000 (This hobbit is looking for her pitchfork...God help the GOP if I find it.)
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