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German police shoot U.S. soldier dead
Yahoo news ^ | Mar 14 | Reuters

Posted on 03/15/2008 1:52:07 AM PDT by SolidWood

BERLIN (Reuters) - A U.S. soldier stationed in southern Germany was shot dead by police after threatening an ex-girlfriend and then going on the run armed with an assault rifle, authorities said on Friday.

The 30-year old, who was serving in the 2nd, "Dagger," brigade of the U.S. 1st Infantry Division, broke into the woman's house late on Thursday, threatened her and tied her up, police in the Bavarian region of Unterfranken said.

She was able to free herself and alerted the police, who began a search using a commando unit and a helicopter equipped with thermal imaging equipment.

Officers found the soldier several hundred meters from the woman's house and tried to arrest him but he threatened them with the semi-automatic rifle and was shot, police said.

He died in hospital early on Friday, according to a statement from the "Dagger" Brigade Chain of Command.

"The Dagger Brigade along with the United States Army Europe takes incidents of this nature extremely seriously and will continue to work with the German authorities to maintain community safety," the statement said.

The name of the soldier was being withheld until his next of kin had been informed, it added.

German police said there was no indication that officers had acted illegally and prosecutors were not planning to open an investigation into the marksmen.

"The officers had to assume that the suspect was going to fire on them with the weapon," a police statement said.

(Reporting by Iain Rogers, editing by Mark Trevelyan)


TOPICS: Breaking News; Crime/Corruption; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1stid; army; daggerbrigade; germany; police; soldier
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To: RetiredArmy
YOU DO NOT MESS with the German police.

The couple of times I had dealing with them, they were very polite, professional, and friendly.

Once was at a shooting range when a couple wanted to shoot our M-60's (the 1st sergeant approved as long as we got to shoot their MP-5's) Once when they were pulling over cars in Ansbach for safety inspections. The last time was when I was riding in a car with my roommate who got pulled over for drunk driving. Even then the Polizei were perfectly professional and even offered to call a taxi for those of us passengers.

Of course, I did hear stories over there about guys resisting arrest, mouthing off to the Polizei, or being involved in bar fights. They didn't end well for the perps.
51 posted on 03/15/2008 9:20:36 AM PDT by Tailback
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To: Yardstick
"Don´t worry, the Iraq war destroyed all the US reputation, but Barrack Osama will build it up again! :-/

The first half of the sentence is the present, the second is the future. My Icon is an expression of sadness/anxiousness. Although I think that Mr. Obama will make America looking better in the eyes of the world, because he won´t act "unilaterally", he´s also the worst choice for the global problems. So while I hope that the US reputation will increase (because you are our natural friend - given our cultural bonds), I hope it won´t be Obama doing that, but McCain.

52 posted on 03/15/2008 9:24:01 AM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: Tailback

One thing that always struck me was how much more respect German police got from citizens compared to their counterparts in America. Don’t think it was just the fact they carried MP-5’s though... ;)

Regards,


53 posted on 03/15/2008 9:30:34 AM PDT by Thunder 6
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To: Michael81Dus
The Iraq war didn't destroy the US's reputation. Europe had been waiting for some excuse to openly revile the US again, and the Iraq war provided it. The present conditions between US and Europe would've arisen sooner or later, one way or another. If it hadn't been Iraq, it would have been something else. Now that the Cold War is over, we're no longer united against a common enemy, so the natural competitive relationship has reemerged. The competition is even more intense now that the US is so clearly the world's dominant power. And this is to say nothing of the basic ideological differences. These things are the reason for Europe's current feelings toward America. Iraq is just the excuse.

BTW, things seem to be going fairly well in Iraq lately. Is anyone in Europe aware of this?

Although I think that Mr. Obama will make America looking better in the eyes of the world, because he won´t act "unilaterally", he´s also the worst choice for the global problems.

So you agree that the world's problems are best solved when the US is more willing to act unilaterally?

54 posted on 03/15/2008 9:44:51 AM PDT by Yardstick
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To: Thunder 6
When I was in Nuremberg in the 70’s, an American that was fluent in German used the familiar term (du bis) you are in stead of the respectful (sie) you tense while talking to a polizei and he sued her for disrespect and won 900 marks for the statement. They don't allow any disrespect for the law.
55 posted on 03/15/2008 9:46:40 AM PDT by bdfromlv (Leavenworth hard time)
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To: lentulusgracchus
Sounds like a note in their service jackets for a chaplain and a shrink. This didn't happen all at once.

IMHO, there's no way to deduce that from the available information. He could've just been a sorry human being. There are some of those in the military, unfortunately. Or maybe you're right. We just don't know.

MM (in TX)

56 posted on 03/15/2008 9:53:13 AM PDT by MississippiMan
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To: RetiredArmy

Well, as usual the Germans have more cajones than the French in terms of maintaining security. I highly doubt Muslims think of pulling the things they do in France.


57 posted on 03/15/2008 10:03:14 AM PDT by Niuhuru (Don't burn a bra, burn a feminist!)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

Indeed. The German polizei can pull some pretty rough stuff off.

Was in Germany once, with some drunk and very disorderly candians, who thought it would be funny to call some uniformed cops “Nazis”. They pulled a number on the boys. Beat em to a pulp, and then tossed em in Jail like no other.


58 posted on 03/15/2008 10:06:29 AM PDT by ketelone
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To: Tailback
The couple of times I had dealing with them, they were very polite, professional, and friendly.

Oh, I agree. I dealt with them a lot because I worked in the JAG legal office, mostly in criminal law and so I had lots of contact with US MP's, CID, German police, etc. for US forces committing offenses out side a base. What I do know for a fact is that many times we had troops give German police a hard time, thinking US troops did not have to do what they were told to do by the German police, and start some physical thing with the police. The GP always won those little get togethers. Stupid boys trying to tell cops what they can and cannot do to them.

59 posted on 03/15/2008 10:18:59 AM PDT by RetiredArmy (Obama nor Hillary have the gonads to be my President.)
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To: bone52; wolf78

I was in Germany in the mid-70s and again from 87-91. Unless the Status of Forces Agreement has changed significantly since 1991, American forces can own weapons without regard to German laws. They can transport them to/from Germany when they move.

Personnel living in barracks must store them in the unit arms room but those living off-post can keep them in their living quarters.

I don’t think this policy is well-known by the German public and I often wondered what kind of stink that would raise.


60 posted on 03/15/2008 10:35:23 AM PDT by jim-x (God help America survive its enemies within.)
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To: bone52

I’m guessing it was his Army issue rifle. The Army takes the security of its weapons very seriously, but nothing’s foolproof. When I was over there, a determined thief could very easily have broken into our unit’s armory in the middle of the night and made off with a rifle or ten within a few minutes if he really wanted to. Also, depending on the guy’s rank, he could’ve slipped away with his rifle while going to or returning from the field or the rifle range, etc.


61 posted on 03/15/2008 10:36:09 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: bone52

I brought my weapons to Germany with me. You just need to file a form. I think it was called an ABC Form 1 or something.

My rifles I could keep at home, my pistols had to be stored in my Unit’s Armory, when not in use.


62 posted on 03/15/2008 10:40:43 AM PDT by papasmurf (I'm not worried anymore. I read Obama's "Blueprint for Change".)
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To: Mustng959

When I was stationed in Mannheim, we had excellent Pistol Range. It was right next door to the Stockade. :)


63 posted on 03/15/2008 10:42:35 AM PDT by papasmurf (I'm not worried anymore. I read Obama's "Blueprint for Change".)
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To: Brilliant
Do they let police have guns in Germany? I thought they were basically eunics.

Not even! In the 70's, they carried Lugars, when I last lived there, 1991, they had Lugars and Glocks. I think it's regionalized, depending on their projected needs.

I witnessed the Polizei handling a bank robbery once. It was amazing how many small machine guns they had. (Uzi's ???) They had setup roadblocks, and pointed those machine guns at every vehicle that approached. Everybody stopped.
64 posted on 03/15/2008 10:48:01 AM PDT by papasmurf (I'm not worried anymore. I read Obama's "Blueprint for Change".)
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To: JudgemAll

I have no problem, at all, with it. It IS their Country. Many heinous crimes have been committed by Americans over there, and our MP’s are, basically, trained to deal with Military matters. AFAIK, only our Army CID are trained and authorized to enforce off base, without a special agreement.

As I remember it...

Garrison MP’s=Traffic Cops, domestic disputes, Barracks fights,etc.
MPI’s=Investigator’s. Accidents, petty crimes, on base drug busts, etc.
CID=Criminalists. Major crimes.


65 posted on 03/15/2008 10:53:33 AM PDT by papasmurf (I'm not worried anymore. I read Obama's "Blueprint for Change".)
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To: SolidWood

Says it all for me:

“Officers found the soldier several hundred meters from the woman’s house and tried to arrest him but he threatened them with the semi-automatic rifle and was shot, police said.”

Soldier or not ... he knows the rules of engagement.


66 posted on 03/15/2008 10:56:19 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: SolidWood

Polizei do not f’ing play.


67 posted on 03/15/2008 10:59:42 AM PDT by Grunthor (I have no representative government, I am a conservative.)
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To: pepsionice

“Here in the Kaiserslautern area...we even had the Army wife (active duty)...who stabbed her alcoholic husband when he threatened her...which she will be facing some kind of assault charges apparently in German court.”

K-town huh? I was Stationed at Landstuhl for 4 years. Lived on Vogelweh. Great area.


68 posted on 03/15/2008 11:01:09 AM PDT by Grunthor (I have no representative government, I am a conservative.)
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To: JudgemAll

Nope, this took place in a German community off base. The young man knew full well what he was dealing with.


69 posted on 03/15/2008 11:02:34 AM PDT by Grunthor (I have no representative government, I am a conservative.)
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To: toddlintown

“I used to find it somewhat unsettling to see the their cops in white hat, green blazers and automatic weapons slung over their shoulders.”

I always found it comforting.


70 posted on 03/15/2008 11:04:44 AM PDT by Grunthor (I have no representative government, I am a conservative.)
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To: Jeff Head
The German Police do not mess around. When they tell you to stop, you stop. Any aggressive move whatsoever on the part of a potential perp is handled very severely.

Exactly the way it ought to be!

71 posted on 03/15/2008 11:14:19 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration ("Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people".-John Adams)
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To: Thunder 6

I’ve always thought germanic people, including scandinavians, have a far less compromising view of the law. If it’s illegal, you don’t do it. There are no other considerations.

I once saw an American trying to convince a Norwegian to smoke pot... Like arguing with a brick wall.


72 posted on 03/15/2008 11:39:17 AM PDT by ivyleaguebrat
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

M4

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/world/europe/14cnd-germany.html?em&ex=1205726400&en=db75a36eb3246df0&ei=5087%0A


73 posted on 03/15/2008 12:54:54 PM PDT by buzzer
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To: toddlintown

“Long before 9/11, as you walked through their airports, I used to find it somewhat unsettling to see the their cops in white hat, green blazers and automatic weapons slung over their shoulders.”

Germany had serious problems with leftist terrorist in the 1970s. They got it managed without starting war whith almost the complete middle east. Remember Mogadishu 1977 ?


74 posted on 03/15/2008 1:00:47 PM PDT by buzzer
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To: AntiKev

If this was a guy coming back from Iraq, we are going to be treated to lots more about this incident.

The press is working on spinning our victory in Iraq back into a Vietnam failure, complete with it’s own “crazy vets” myth.


75 posted on 03/15/2008 1:02:09 PM PDT by Wiseghy ("You want to break this army? Then break your word to it.")
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To: SolidWood

It’s sad if true. With all the lefties and their spinning especially against America and her troops...who the F knows for sure. Maybe the military will do their own investigation and we’ll know for sure this is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


76 posted on 03/15/2008 1:09:48 PM PDT by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: papasmurf

Was this recently that you took your weapons with you to Germany?


77 posted on 03/15/2008 1:23:54 PM PDT by bone52
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To: bone52

91-92. I was a Military “dependent” (spouse) at the time. I lived in Gross Zimmern, sub of Darmstadt.

Has it changed since?


78 posted on 03/15/2008 1:44:38 PM PDT by papasmurf (I'm not worried anymore. I read Obama's "Blueprint for Change".)
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To: papasmurf; bone52

Just looked it up - apparently the SOFA was renegotiated a few years ago (I remember hearing something about that).

The following information was taken from this page:
http://www.irwin.army.mil/HQGarrison/Staff/Logistics/CountryInstructions-Germany.htm
(similar information at a USAREUR web site)

Privately Owned Firearms (POFs)

To avoid the possibility of German criminal prosecution for unauthorized possession of weapons or the possibility of punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, privately owned firearms will not be shipped, handcarried, or transported in luggage to Germany until further notice. The ownership and possession of privately owned firearms is prohibited by German law unless the owner has a German Weapons Possession Card(Waffenbesitzkarte). Headquarters, USAREUR and German Federal Ministry of the Interior are developing procedures to enable military and civilian personnel assigned to Germany and their dependents to obtain these cards through the USAREUR Central Registry. This instruction will be modified or rescinded when the weapons permit procedures are finalized and implemented. (CH)


79 posted on 03/15/2008 2:00:15 PM PDT by jim-x (God help America survive its enemies within.)
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To: jim-x
Looks like they did change around 2005. At least they did make provisions to bring them, and that's cool. I suppose if I wanted to take one now, my Father in law, who's an ex Chief of Police (Ruesselsheim) could help me. :)

But, if I wanted to take or display a pr0n collection...

Sexually Explicit/Pornographic Material
No restrictions identified.


Go figure.
80 posted on 03/15/2008 2:49:16 PM PDT by papasmurf (I'm not worried anymore. I read Obama's "Blueprint for Change".)
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To: Grunthor
I always found it comforting.

Took the words right out of my mouth...er fingertips.
81 posted on 03/15/2008 2:52:00 PM PDT by papasmurf (I'm not worried anymore. I read Obama's "Blueprint for Change".)
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To: bone52

Um....well.....we do have US military bases in Germany.

This is indeed, very sad.


82 posted on 03/15/2008 3:06:50 PM PDT by Just Lori (There is nothing democrat-"ic" about democrats.)
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To: JudgemAll

WE are in THEIR country. When in any foreign country, you must respect the laws and the authorities thereof.

Would you feel the same way if a German soldier did this on OUR soil?


83 posted on 03/15/2008 3:10:48 PM PDT by Just Lori (There is nothing democrat-"ic" about democrats.)
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To: Just Lori

Just a related question....weren’t there German commandos at Waco, back in 1993? Does anyone else know anything about such reports?


84 posted on 03/15/2008 5:41:26 PM PDT by 2harddrive (...House a TOTAL Loss.....)
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To: Brilliant
I thought they were basically eunuchs.

There's nothing like the sight of a cop armed with a sub-machine gun strolling the concourse of the airport in Frankfurt to disabuse one of any such notion.

I have a friend who's worked with the Polizei. They're pretty effective with nightsticks, too. And the ACLU does not have a following in Germany.

85 posted on 03/15/2008 8:10:12 PM PDT by HiJinx (~ Support our Troops ~ www.americasupportsyou.mil ~)
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To: jim-x

It changed significantly around 2000. I left in 2001 and was one of the last people in my unit allowed to keep my weapons at home because I was leaving right about the same time the ban on GIs keeping privately owned weapons kicked in.


86 posted on 03/15/2008 8:51:42 PM PDT by jospehm20
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To: SolidWood

Very sad indeed..but the headline was a bit misleading. I was thinking, unprovoked attack for a second. PS: I’m not the thread title police, just an observation.


87 posted on 03/15/2008 10:13:31 PM PDT by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/)
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To: buzzer
s. They (the Germany) got it managed without starting war whith almost the complete middle east.

What kind of crock is this? Since when is the US at war with the complete ME? Since when did the US start it? Remember 9/11? Do you suggest that getting rid of Taliban and Saddam is a catastrophe? You are new here... I take it you are not American, are you?

88 posted on 03/16/2008 1:58:53 AM PDT by SolidWood (All conservative effort into retaking Congress!)
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To: Michael81Dus

Yeah, it’s the same in the U.S. Army, too. He either took it during the day, like you say, or the armorer didn’t actually do a barrel count but said he did.


89 posted on 03/16/2008 5:05:19 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (Dude, where's my adrenaline?)
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To: buzzer

“Germany had serious problems with leftist terrorist in the 1970s.”

Baader Meinhof was the big problem when I was there.


90 posted on 03/16/2008 5:48:12 AM PDT by toddlintown (On Obama's moral compass, "N" doesn't stand for "North.")
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To: SolidWood

What’s the Exit Strategy from Germany?


91 posted on 03/16/2008 6:56:19 AM PDT by sono (The Future Ain't What It Used To Be - Yogi Berra)
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To: SolidWood

Very sad. Sounds like the guy had some serious issues. I’m just glad he didn’t kill the woman involved.


92 posted on 03/16/2008 11:15:04 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: sono

Quagmire.


93 posted on 03/16/2008 11:41:58 AM PDT by I got the rope
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To: Brilliant

What’s a “eunic”?

Most ex-GI’s I know said you don’t mess around with German cops.


94 posted on 03/16/2008 1:00:04 PM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: nyyankeefan
You are too funny! I laughed my @#$ off when I read your comment.

How true! There were no cries to bring me home during the almost 13 years I spent there.... I'm glad- what an experience. Though, I didn't go on any shooting-sprees.;-)

95 posted on 03/16/2008 2:34:55 PM PDT by DilJective (Who is Francisco D'Anconia?)
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To: ozzymandus
What’s a “eunic”?

Its one of the earlier Programming Languages.

96 posted on 03/16/2008 2:42:13 PM PDT by Doe Eyes
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To: Yardstick
So you agree that the world's problems are best solved when the US is more willing to act unilaterally?

Definitely not. I can´t see where I should have expressed that. But global problems can be best solved when they´re not ignored or played down. I expect from a US president to push for reasonable solutions, and to be honest, President Bush has disappointed me with regard to Iran lately.

97 posted on 03/17/2008 12:14:54 AM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: JudgemAll
I have a problem when we let Germans and not our own army deal with such problems. It’s a bad precedent.

Its Germany, would you want a dozen foreign military police units running around in America with guns taking care of their problems?

Hats off to the Germans for handling it, we owe them an apology for having an unstable service man in their homeland.

98 posted on 03/17/2008 3:20:26 AM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: bone52
I am not military, but (since we arent’ in Switzerland), I can’t imagine that soldiers take their issue rifles home with them.

Actually, it was most likely his assigned service weapon. He may have had it signed out of the arms room for cleaning and then slipped off base without permission when no one was looking.

Not hard to do at all. Most would never do it for fear of getting caught and the rather severe consequences that would follow. He obviously did not care about that.

99 posted on 03/17/2008 12:05:49 PM PDT by PsyOp (Truth in itself is rarely sufficient to make men act. - Clauswitz, On War, 1832.)
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To: Brilliant
Do they let police have guns in Germany? I thought they were basically eunics.

They have them and use them. Most cops carry a 9mm semi-auto pistol on their hips and a fully-automatic weapon like the UZI or an MP5 in their car.

When I was in Germany (80-83), the rule was never to mess with the German police. Present them with an armed threat and they will kill you. No ACLU in Duetchland.

100 posted on 03/17/2008 12:09:39 PM PDT by PsyOp (Truth in itself is rarely sufficient to make men act. - Clauswitz, On War, 1832.)
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