Posted on 12/11/2007 4:12:59 PM PST by Tlaloc
Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks in an upcoming article, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"
The article, to be published in Sunday's New York Times Magazine, says Huckabee asked the question after saying he believes Mormonism is a religion but doesn't know much about it. His rival Mitt Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, is a member of the Mormon church, which is known officially as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The authoritative Encyclopedia of Mormonism, published in 1992, does not refer to Jesus and Satan as brothers. It speaks of Jesus as the son of God and of Satan as a fallen angel, which is a Biblical account.
A spokeswoman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said Huckabee's question is usually raised by those who wish to smear the Mormon faith rather than clarify doctrine.
"We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all," said the spokeswoman, Kim Farah. "That means that all beings were created by God and are his spirit children. Christ, on the other hand, was the only begotten in the flesh and we worship him as the son of God and the savior of mankind. Satan is the exact opposite of who Christ is and what he stands for."
Romney did not respond to a request for comment.
Earlier this month in Iowa, Huckabee wouldn't say whether he thought Mormonism — rival Romney's religion — was a cult.
"I'm just not going to go off into evaluating other people's doctrines and faiths. I think that is absolutely not a role for a president," the former Arkansas governor said.
(Excerpt) Read more at iht.com ...
I am an evangelical, and Mitt is not my man.
Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16) God of the spirits of all flesh.
Job 38: 7 all the sons of God shouted for joy.
Eccl. 12: 7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Jer. 1: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.
Zech. 12: 1 Lord . . . formeth the spirit of man within him.
John 9: 2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind.
Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Rom. 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.
Eph. 1: 4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.
Heb. 12: 9 subjection unto the Father of spirits.
Jude 1: 6 angels which kept not their first estate.
Rev. 12: 7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon.
See also Prov. 8: 22-31; John 1: 2, 14; John 8: 58; John 16: 28; John 17: 5, 24; 2 Tim. 1: 9; Titus 1: 2;
Only in a way. Your analogy is actually showing something called "modalism" or the idea that one (unknowable, and hidden) person of God plays 3 roles. It was a heresy condemned in the 3rd and 4th Centuries. It's related in a way to unitarianism as it assumes there's one monad God, which we cannot really know, as he just uses 3 different masks, or hats, like your business owner--and we only see him behind those masks.
This is kind of the opposite to Mormonism, which is at least tri-theism, but really polytheism. Another interesting thing about Mormonism is most forms tend to believe matter and the universe is eternal....with an endless sucession of gods begatting gods going back ad infinitum. Mormons cannot confess that God made all that is out of nothing.
The classic formula attempting to know a little of the nature the infinite God says God is one in essence and three in persons.
Another way to put it is how it was described since at least Augustine (AD 430). The Father is God, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
Do I understand it? No way. Is is surprising that a finite creature cannot grasp the concept of 3 persons who are one being? No....as its quite logical that the infinite eternal only high God's inner nature would be a serious mystery to us.
There are all kinds of analogies, but every one fails at one point or another. 3 parts of an apple (skin, flesh, seeds) yet every part is apple. 3 leaves of a clover, but just one clover leaf. 3 dimensions.... 3 states of water (liquid, vapor, ice). The 3 parts of time (past, present, future).3 (major) parts of an Atom. 3 parts of ethics (the standard, the situation at hand, the individual involved), etc, etc. It seems the harder one looks, the more triads there are regarding concepts in the world. (but of course "triad" is just a word picture of abstract reality).
The problem with the idea of God playing different roles, as I hinted above, is that we cannot know someone who's always behind a mask. However that's not how scripture speaks of God. It says we can know Jesus Christ personally, and to do so, knows God--and simultaneously comes to know the Father--through the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Father sent Jesus. Jesus came and obeyed--even to the cross and resurrection. The Holy Spirit gives us new hearts to receive this (and understand, some). This formula shows what is called the "economic" Trinity--different roles yes, but unlike your business owner, 3 distinct persons too.
A pastor I greatly trust advises that when speaking of the Trinity its not wise to rely on analogies--since none can capture trinitarianism just right, but to just take what scripture says. It refers to Jesus as God, and yet Jesus prays to His Father, as God, and it speaks of the Holy Spirit as God. And throughout, Old Testament and New, it also says there is only One God (the famous sh'mai, of the Jews). The one God issue....in and beyond all the universe, is the biggest stumbling block for Mormons.
And no, followers of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, Jesus was not the spirit-brother to the Devil, or to you and me. Angels, fallen or not, are a different species entirely than human beings. God was father only to Adam, and Adam disowned that. He only becomes Father to us again, when we trust and thereby become unified with Jesus, called the 2nd Adam in the NT book of Hebrews.
So it is out in the open. Mormons believe that God the Father created (or pro-created) a spirit child which is Jesus and he created Jesus in the same manner in which he created all the other spirit beings, including you and me.
You do realize of course that this means that Mormonism is NOT a CHRISTIAN RELIGION, since Christianity has always taught that Christ was not a Created being but was God from all eternity.
But thanks for clearing that up.
BTW would you kindly admit to all the shocked freepers out there that think that Huckabee is a bigot that Mormons really do believe that Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers and were both literal spiritual sons of God the Father.
“Wow, Huckabee pretty much strikes me as someone that has no time for anyone that can’t be classified as an Evangelical Christian. I hesitate to use the word “bigot” because that gets thrown around a bit too loosely in this place, but damn.”
I won’t hesitate...he’s a self righteous bigot. It’s frightening.
“Satan to Jesus: “Don’t tase me, bro”
Huckabee thinks Jesus says ‘What would Mike do?’
I’m with you.
Hehe!
If Huckabee were debating what is true religion, his remarks would be appropriate, but he claims to be debating political issues.
Huckabee's question (in the context of a political campaign) was idiotic. It was not bigoted.
Frankly, I would rather Romney be president than Huckabee. But Romney's church really does teach that Jesus and Satan were spiritual brothers and both were spiritual sons created by God the Father.
That means that Mormonism is not a Christian Religion. It looks like a Christian Religion, but then so does Unitarianism.
I believe in the Christian bible, and the verses that I outlined above. I will include them here, for your perusal:
Num. 16: 22 God of the spirits of all flesh.
Deut. 14: 1 Ye are the children of the Lord your God.
Mal. 2: 10 Have we not all one father.
Acts 17: 29 we are the offspring of God.
Rom. 8: 16 Spirit itself beareth witness . . . we are the children of God.
Eph. 4: 6 One God and Father of all.
Heb. 12: 9 ..be in subjection unto the Father of spirits.
These verses are in the Bible, the foundation of Christianity. I would hesitate to call a religion that professes to believe that all are spirit children of God, because of these verses that say EXACTLY that, a non Christian religion. Besides that, this venom is unbecoming a Christian. Did not Jesus tell us to Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself, and Judge Not that Ye Be Not Judged.
First, the reference to Lucifer falling from heaven found in Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
This is from the Doctrine and Covenants of the Church, and it is a record of a vision of the heavens.
D&C 76:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/25#25
22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our Cod and his Christ—
29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.
30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
Why not? Did their God change his mind again? Just like he did on allowing Black people to be Mormons?
He told us to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (Matthew 7:15 KJV)
Do you believe that Jesus is a created being just like you?
Did God the Father create (or procreate) Jesus?
If you believe that, then, I am sorry to say that you are not a Christian; not by any historical definition of the term.
Jesus did not become God. Jesus is God from all eternity. That is the teaching of the Christian Church. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe in Christ. At least not the REAL Christ.
Sorry, but we are told to tell the truth.
This smear piece on Huckabee is meant to be deceiving. Many people who responded seem to think (as was intended no doubt) that Mike is asking this question in an op ed piece that he wrote. However this quote from the AP story suggests that the question Mike asked was in response to another question:
“The article, to be published in Sunday’s New York Times Magazine, says Huckabee asked the question after saying he believes Mormonism is a religion but doesn’t know much about it.”
I suspect that a reporter asked Mike how his Christian beliefs differ from Mormonism. He responded honestly and off the cuff.
The Middle East has their jihadist fundamentalists. Christianity also has theirs. Ours don’t try to cut peoples’s heads off, but ours tries to discredit, attack character, smear, and embarrass. Both groups think they are on God’s errand. One can try to correct them or point out their misunderstandings. However, you soon find that they have no interest in understanding, because after you point out the error, they ignore it and go right on repeating the error. It is not understanding they want. Their intent is to destroy, embarrass, and impede others.
You would think they had something more important to do. As Jesus said, “They know not what spirit they are of.”
Huckabee’s question is worse than bigotry, it is a ploy, and it plays on the theological and historical ignorance of everyone who hears it. If this were 1888, and a Mormon were running for President, this theological statement would be a charge that should be raised, because of the deep divisions between the Mormons in Utah and the traditional Christians there. It would imply that the two groups could not co-exist. We could infer reasonably that that might be the case. My objection now is that the Mormons have been “tamed.” or “christianized,”so that their morality, their deportment is now consistent with the public peace. I find it ironical that they stand for a morality that is more Christian than that of many main-line Christian churches. Huckabee seems to be implying that such a doctrine necessarily means that a Mormon President would adopt policies that will depart from this course.
Just like you and Joseph Smith, right. It appears you are dissembling. On the one hand you claim that God is the Father of all Spirits and that means that Jesus and you are brothers, and then you try to deny that Jesus was a created being. What you really mean is that there are no created beings and that everyone, including you and me and "our elder brother" Jesus, are without beginning or end.
You are right, Mormons don't believe that Jesus was created. He was "procreated". He is literally the spiritual son of the Father just like every other human being who has ever walked the earth. The Mormon God didn't "create" Jesus. He didn't create anything. He merely organized the existing material after he was given the authority to do so by the Council of Gods on Kolob after the Heavenly Father had been exalted by that Council for all the good works he did when he was a Mormon (or the equivalent) on his own planet somewhere in the universe.
But, of course, you will deny that that is all "Mormon Doctrine", but then you won't deny that it is either possible or true.
That is the kind of nonsense I was taught when I was a Mormon. Maybe they don't teach it anymore, but I suspect they do. The whole doctrine of "Eternal Progression" is built upon this concept. That is the primary thing we were taught in Priesthood classes in the 1960's. It was the distinguishing difference between Mormonism and all the apostate churches like the Catholics and protestants.
Becoming a God is the ultimate goal of every male Mormon.
Are you going to deny that?
Show me a good reliable book written by one of your apostles or prophets that sets forth the basic and fundamental and unique doctrines of the Mormon Church.
Just provide us all with a link to Amazon.
You claim that it is out there, but you didn't even provide us with the name of a single book that will clear up all the doctrinal questions that plague the Mormon Church.
In a word, put up or shut up.
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