Carthage Tries To Live Down Image As Site Of Infanticide

Post-Gazette/Wall Street Journal ^ | 5-26-2004 | Andrew Higgins

[blam]

Carthage tries to live down image as site of infanticide

Thursday, May 26, 2005

By Andrew Higgins, The Wall Street Journal

CARTHAGE, Tunisia -- Mhamed Hassine Fantar has a bone to pick with the Roman Empire, French writer Gustave Flaubert and a group of Americans who specialize in digging up old graves.

An expert on ancient Carthage -- a city obliterated by the Romans more than 2,000 years ago -- Mr. Fantar is campaigning to clear his forefathers of a nasty stigma: a reputation for infanticide.

"We didn't do it," says the 69-year-old archaeologist, rejecting accusations that the ancient citizens of this North African land sacrificed babies to appease their gods.

[BlackElk]

SCOTUS delendus est!

[Oberon]

In practice you aren't that far off, although similar claims can arguably be made about every other system of governance or economy ever developed.

Oh, I don't know. Randian Objectivists would likely argue with you on that one. The non-toking Libertarians would side with them. The toking Libertarians would order a pizza.

But those who genuinely believe in socialism do so out of a desire to force humans to be equal.

Granted.

[rumrunner]

Carthago delenda est!

[Clemenza]

Arabs are traditionally understood to be descendents of Shem. Therefore they are Semitic. The Hamitic peoples are the Nubians, Eritreans, etc.

[Oberon]

I remain

IMPAVIDUS PER IUDICIUM BONUM

[auntyfemenist]

Actually, the Roman's practiced exposure of unwanted newborns frequently. Remember, Claudius, who was born deformed and later became one of the Roman Emperors barely escaped that fate.

[Sam the Sham]

No, more like watching the John Wayne "Alamo" movie.

A cliche of Roman history is how they triumphed over "great men". Pyrrhus, Hannibal, Jugurtha, Mithridates. Their triumph over the greatest of them was a national epic of heroic survival on the par of the Great Patriotic War.

In his history, the Greek historian Polybius, after describing the catastrophic Roman defeat at Cannae, broke off to describe the republican political institutions that enabled Rome to recover from such a defeat. Carthage never recovered from Zama. Macedon never recovered from Cynoscephelae. The Seleucids never recovered from Magnesia. But Rome recovered from Cannae and went on to win. Rome simply had a national will to win that the despotisms did not match. It could just keep on raising new armies and fighting until it had overwhelmed Carthage. Like the Great Patriotic War it was a victory of endurance and sacrifice over military genius and crack soldiers.

It was hatred that gave Rome that determination, that edge to fight on til victory instead of suing for peace after Cannae as any other nation would have done.

[inquest]

It was hatred that gave Rome that determination, that edge to fight on til victory instead of suing for peace after Cannae as any other nation would have done.

Not to mention a little bit of luck thrown in. Hannibal could have easily taken Rome after having wiped out its entire army, but decided to put it on the back burner for some inexplicable reason. That gave Rome time to recover and raise a new force.

Carthage never recovered from Zama.

Apparently Rome was concerned that it would recover - or at least that was the rhetoric that was used to justify totaling the place.

[Sam the Sham]

Hannibal did not attack Rome because taking the capital of a republic will not knock it out of the war. And tying yourself down to a siege commits you to having to take the city or suffer a perceived defeat.

He wanted to detach the Greeks and Brutians and Samnites from loyalty to Rome. But he failed. That was his only real hope of victory. To take away Rome's massive demographic advantage over Carthage.

[inquest]

Hannibal did not attack Rome because taking the capital of a republic will not knock it out of the war.

I'm not so sure about that. Republic or not, Rome was the economic powerhouse of the entire state. Did any of the other cities in its territory come close to it in population?

And tying yourself down to a siege commits you to having to take the city or suffer a perceived defeat.

What tying down? Rome was defenseless - as defenseless as Carthage was when Rome levelled it, if not moreso, because it had lost a great portion of its men of fighting age.

[qam1]

I like the scene in Gadiator where they're re-playing the battle of Carthage in the Coliseum. From the point of view of the romans in the 2nd Century AD, the Punic wars would have been ancient history. Kind of like us watching a movie about the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire.

Except the part where they pulled out a crossbow (and a repeater no less). It's doubtful they had crossbows in Rome during Commodus' time, never mind having one at the time of Scipio & Hannibal.

So it would be like watching a movie about the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire where one of the conquistadors pulls out a star trek phaser and starts blowing the Aztec's away.

I guess the Roman brought the crossbow at the same place they brought their Blue Jeans.

[SunkenCiv]

This guy's full of it. The worship of Moloch involved the sacrifice of worshippers' children.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/moloch.html

[SunkenCiv]

Of course Arabs are Semitic. Hamitic refers to pre-Arab Egyptians, Cushites, and some others in NE Africa.

[inquest]

This page contains a timeline on crossbows. It's kind of ambiguous whether the Romans would have had them in the 2nd century, but as you surmised, it looks pretty likely that Scipio wouldn't have seen any.

[Sam the Sham]

It was not a crossbow. It was a ballista which was a common siege weapon of the time.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks Blam.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest -- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[SunkenCiv]

Archeologists discover ancient graffiti on China's Great Wall
Yahoo News | July 11, 2004 | AFP
Posted on 07/11/2004 4:17:46 PM PDT by FairOpinion
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1169415/posts 16 posted on 07/11/2004 7:44:57 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1169415/posts?page=16#16

Romans in China?
Archaeology | Volume 52 Number 3, May/June 1999 | Erling Hoh
Posted on 07/18/2004 8:43:09 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1173944/posts

[swilhelm73]

Still, he isn't expecting to win them over. "No one really relishes having ancestors who committed such heinous acts," he says.

As a practical matter, are today's Tunisians actually even related to ancient Carthinigians? The area was colonized by Rome after they destroyed the city and conquered by the Arabs after all.

[swilhelm73]

Which is really funny. Because the American Negro in question was a dead ringer for him.

What actor are we talking about?

[Renfield]

Arabs are not Hamitic. Arabs and Jews both claim descendence from Shem, mentioned in the Bible.

A few Yemenis display some Hamitic features, but the bulk of Arabs are Semitic.