Posted on 04/08/2005 9:17:07 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick
Wow! Finally somebody has dedicated a thread in my name!
How can i ever thank you...... :-D
I wonder if the other species agree with this?
Good book.
DIDJA hafta bring up THAT subject?
Remember, one man's Mongol is another man's Turk. They all have Type B blood ~ they kind of invented the stuff too.
Didn't they also shave off the ambassador's beard or something?
I think I read someplace that such an act was a sign of terrible disrespect.
I don't recall; I think you're right, though. This was the second ambassador that the Persians killed.
from http://library.thinkquest.org/11847/gather/9b.html, a pretty good summary of what happened:
"In 1209, Ghengis Khan's invasions began. He began by taking Xi Xia, a kingdom situated along the Silk Road that exacted heavy taxes from Mongol caravans. His next target was Jin. However, he was unable to attack over the 40-foot walls which confronted him. So he instead ravaged the countryside for several years. When he returned in 1214 with 70,000 troops and the Chinese technology of mangonels, an advanced catapult that could fling 100-pound weights, the Jin quickly fell, offering gold, silver, and a princess in tribute. A short time later, the Jin began to regroup further south. Ghengis Khan quickly attacked again, slaughtering a great number of the Jin people. In 1218, 20,000 horsemen easily took Kara-Khitan, where the mostly Muslim population had been religiously oppressed. The word of the Mongol army began to spread. "In the countries that have not yet been overrun by them, everyone spends the night afraid that they may appear there too" (Ibn Al-Athir, NG 96, p 9). "
"Ghengis now set to work on building his capitol city, Karakorum, with help from the thousands of artisans he had collected from conquered realms. He also built a government with the help of Chinese scholars. He attempted to open up trade with neighboring Samarkand, sending 450 merchants to the capitol. A border governor arrested them and had them all executed as spies. When Ghengis demanded [of the Shah -Spk] that the governor be handed over for punishment, the ambassador's head was sent back in reply. This was a supreme offense to the Mongols. "In retribution for every hair on their heads it seemed that a hundred thousand heads rolled in the dust" (Juvaini, NG 96, p 28). They asked for more troops from Xi Xia, but were turned down, an affront that would be revenged. With 110,000 men Ghengis surrounded both major cities in the kingdom, bombarding them with the mangonels for a month before they fell."
Ghengis had gone out of his way to make the first embassy palatable to the Persians, to the point of ordering that the ambassador and staff sent should be Muslims. By doubly insulting Ghengis, the "civilized world' announced that they thought they could slaughter him and his at will. He probably figured "it's them or us, and I'd rather it be us" - so he took on the world.
One of the "unexpected consequences" of this was the siege and sack of proud Baghdad in 1258, well after the death of Ghengis. An interesting aside - Ghengis introduced many modern concepts to warfare, among which was this rule: 'It is forbidden to abandon any living comrade in the field of battle; at pain of death.'
Ghengis was absolutely not evil. Ruthless in war, yes. Deliberately cruel? No. The general picture of him as a demon is colored by the accounts of the people who insulted him and defied him.
I've had an interest in Mongols & Huns for a while (as well
as other peoples), but many things I've read have been of a
"tainted" nature. I'm sure he was better than he is often given
credit for, but I'm also sure he had a powerful temper...
otherwise, I doubt his revenge would be as it was.
He was far better than he's been given credit for in the mainstream histories. His temper was legendary as well - though he didn't ever let it be his master. In this case, I really can't say that I wouldn't have done the same in his place, can you? The foreign government of (what appeared to him to be) the Western world kills my representatives that I've chosen to be as palatable as possible, and then kills my dearest friend who I sent as a peaceful envoy. Then they send me his head back in a bag and I'm supposed to kowtow to them? Screw that, I'm going to take apart the world if I have to to get at the people responsible.
I'm pretty sure that's how many people would act, as well.
Yes, I'm sure I would too... though women are
often frowned upon for having tempers like men.
Most of what I've been able to find & read relate to his
death & burial, usually making it a big point that his grave
is still unknown to us.... but, that was exactly the idea. Even
then he & his people are portrayed mostly as blood loving.
The Muslims were defeated at the gates of Vienna. The Mongols breached Europe at the battles of Liegnitz and Mohi (a lot earlier), with the Mongols withdrawing to deal with succession at the death of the khan (on of Ghengis' sons, Ogedai I believe).
His grave is unmarked and unknown because he did not wish to be worshipped as a god (which some of his people were starting to do). He was a big believer in God, though it was not the Judeo-Christian concept of God. He believed that for a man to be worshipped as a god was blasphemous and weakened the people.
This should interest you, then; Ghengis often sent women (but not courtesans) as ambassadors, with a suitable guard party. An absolutely astounding idea for the 1200s...
I'd never read that before. Then again, I've already
mentioned what I've read was slanted, so such a fact
wouldn't be represented. He must always be portrayed
as a barbarian & nothing more complex.
Never read that before either. I had read somewhere he had
become obsessed with immortality or death or something like
that... though I haven't read enough about him to know what's
true & what is made up for one's own stance on him.
Many of the things I read are online, as there is no
local library. The sites I found I generally decided
didn't have enough info to be worth bookmarking.
Discovery did a pretty good overview of his life and career a few weeks ago. It leaves out a number of details and focuses more on his military abilities, but it definitely is not a hack job. Most histories of him sound like "George Bush, as told by Al-Jazeera with special reporting from Osama Bin Laden" would. This one doesn't and it's worth watching.
I saw it while looking at the tv listings on the guide
channel, but figured it'd be terrible & didn't watch it.
One thing I do know (military wise) is the Mongols had
multiple types of arrows, which I thought were intriguing
(& beautiful in a certain way). Some were meant to whistle
while others were (of course) meant to inflict injury.
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