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N.E. Asia: The Ancient Yan and the Ye-maek Chosun(spread of Iron Culture)
Upkorea ^ | 03/20/05 | Wontack Hong

Posted on 03/20/2005 6:27:41 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster

The Ancient Yan and the Ye-maek Chosun

 

wthong@wontockhong.pe.kr

 


The Ancient Yan
and the Ye-maek Chosun

Yan Initiating the Korean Iron Age



Wontack Hong
Professor, Seoul University

The proto-Turko-Mongol populations, who had first settled around Transbaikalia across the Great Altai, dispersed further across the Greater Xing¡¯an Range to become the proto-Xianbei-Tungus in Manchuria, and an offshoot of them tracked a warmer and moister climate down through the Korean peninsula to become the rice-cultivating farmers. The Korean peninsula is an extension of central Manchuria towards the sea, having a long strip of plains in the west flanked by high mountains in the east.

The greater Manchurian ethnohistorical sphere of the Xianbei-Tungus that includes the Korean peninsula has formed one of the three major sub-regions of East Asia, sharing intimate histories with strong cultural affinity.1 The proto-Altaic speech community of Xianbei-Tungus had shared the Neolithic Hong-shan culture, and also the tradition of dolmens, broad-and-narrow-bladed bronze daggers, and Chulmum-Mumun pottery. The Korean peninsula has been closely connected with Manchuria not only as an ethnohistorical entity but also as a physical reality.

The Liao-xi steppe in western Manchuria was the home of Dong-hu, including the Xianbei and their descendent Qidan tribes, who were the steppe wolves leading a life rather like that of Mongolic nomads. The forest region in eastern Manchuria, extending from the Lesser Xing¡¯an Ranges down to the Changbai Mountain area, was the home of the Mohe-Ruzhen Tungus (who were the descendants of Sushen-Yilou and ancestors of the core Manchu tribes) who were the forest tigers leading a life of rather extensive hunting and gathering supplemented by patchy farming.

The central Manchurian plain around the upper Song-hua and Liao River basins (the Dong-bei Plain) as well as the mountainous areas around Hun (Dong-jia), Yalu and Tae-dong rivers were the home of the Ye-maek Tungus, including the people of Old Chosun, Puyeo, and Koguryeo, whose life involved millet farming and livestock breeding, with hunting and river fishing serving as additional means of subsistence. Definite evidence of millet is found at Xin-le sites of Liao-dong c. 5000 BC.2 The southern Korean peninsula was the home of rice-cultivating Ye-maek cousins who had established ancient political entities that were called collectively Chin, Han or Three Hans in the Chinese dynastic chronicles. In the ethnohistorical context, the ancient home of the Ye-maek Tungus, i.e., the central Manchurian basin and the Korean peninsula, may be defined as the ¡°Korea proper.¡±

The Neolithic period of Korea proper, characterized by the comb-patterned Chul-mun pottery, began c. 8000 BC. According to Barnes (1993: 109), ¡°the Fuhe, Hong-shan and Xin-le shared a textured-pottery tradition more similar to the incised Chul-mun of the Korean peninsula than the Neolithic cultures of the China Mainland.¡± A new pottery style represented by the plain Mumun pottery began to appear in Korea proper c. 2000 BC, designating the late Neolithic. Pottery from many sites of Liao-ning and Heilong-jiang is similar to the plain Mumun pottery from other Manchurian sites and the Korean peninsula. 3

Similarities between the Manchurian basin and the Korean peninsula, observed in the Neolithic sites in the form of comb-patterned Chul-mun pottery, continue in the Bronze Age sites in the form of plain Mumun pottery, dolmen, and bronze daggers. Dolmen, the status symbol of Ye-maek ruling elites, characterizes the Dong-yi culture of the Manchurian basin and the Korean peninsula.4 The dolmen sites never yield iron, so dolmen-building is thought to have been discontinued by 300 BC (see Barnes, 1993, p. 166).

The Bronze Age began c. 1500 BC in the Manchurian basin and c. 1000 BC in the Korean peninsula (see Barnes, 1993: 160-1). According to Barnes (1993: 162), ¡°the peninsular Bronze Age per se is defined by the intrusion of the [broad-bladed] Liao-ning dagger from the Manchurian Basin.¡± Unlike the Han Chinese bronze daggers, the blade of Liao-ning daggers was cast separately from the hilt. According to Nelson (1993: 133), ¡°Liao-ning dagger is found abundantly in the Liao-dong peninsula and around Bohai Bay, as well as in Korea, but it is not found in China south of the Great Wall.¡± Molds for bronze daggers, arrowheads, (fine-lined) mirrors, fishhooks, and axes, and other bronze artifacts such as bells, (animal-shaped) belt buckles, buttons, horse trappings, and chariot ornaments have appeared in the plain Mumun pottery sites throughout the peninsula.5 The origins of the bronze dagger and the fine-lined mirror that are abundantly found in the Korean peninsula are traced to the Upper Xiajia-dian culture (see Pai, 2000, pp. 200, 203).

Rice discovered in the western peninsula dates from 2400 and 2100 BC (see Nelson, 1993, p. 147). A group of southern Chinese who were cultivating rice perhaps crossed the Yellow Sea and found a similar ecological niche in the southern peninsula. By taking advantage of northeasterly winds, ships could sail in summer directly from the mouth of Yang-zi River toward the southwestern tip of the Korean peninsula. 6

According to Shi-ji, King Wu, the first king of Zhou, commanded the Duke of Shao to release Kija from the imprisonment imposed on him by the last Shang king. The Shi- ji created the legend that King Wu enfeoffed the Duke of Shao as the ruler of (Northern) Yan, and also enfeoffed Kija as the ruler of Chosun, an eastern neighbor of Yan, in about the eleventh century BC. With a few strokes, Si-ma Qian installed two ancient Han Chinese royal scions as founders of both Dong-hu and Ye-maek Tungus states. The Shi-ji states that the Lord of Zhou ruled Shaan and its west, and the Duke of Shao the east of Shaan. Shi-ji notes that there must have been another Yan (called Southern Yan). 7

Chosun appears in the records on the ruler of Qi (685-43 BC) in the Guan-zi that was compiled during the Warring States Period.8 Puyeo and Chosun both appear in the Shi-ji records on (Old) Yan in the fourth century BC. The History of Later Han records that the area of Ye, Ok-jeo and Koguryeo originally belonged to the territory of Chosun.9

   
¡ã A.2.3. Location of¡°the Long Wall built by Yan¡±(Di Cosmo, 2002, p. 141)
11. Chi-feng; 12. Jian-ping;
13. Fu-xin; and 14. Karachin Banner
The Zhou court (1122 or 1027-256 BC) fell into complete decay and the Warring States period began in 403 BC. According to the Wei-Lüe (quoted in the Three Han section of Dongyi-zhuan), when the Zhou became weak, the ruler of Yan assumed the title of king [in 323 BC]; then the ¡°Lord of Chosun, a scion of Ji-zi¡± also declared himself king; and these two states were on the brink of fighting each other. The armed conflicts between Chosun and Yan at last occurred c. 300 BC: the Yan dispatched a general named Qin Kai (who was active during 311-297 BC) to invade Chosun. The Xiong-nu section of Shi-ji notes that the Yan greatly expanded its territory, established five provinces, and constructed a Long Wall from Zao-yang to Xiang-ping.10

According to the Shi-ji, the walls built by the Yan and rebuilt by the Qin reached Laio-dong. As shown in the twelfth century map of Di Li Tu, however, the present-day Luan River was called the Liao River in old days, and the present-day Liao River was called the Lesser Liao River. Hence the ¡°Liao-dong¡± in the Shi-ji must have implied the east of Luan River.11 That is, the Liao-xi and Liao-dong provinces established by the Yan must have been located aound the modern-day Luan River, while the provinces of Shang-gu, Yu-yang, and Youbei-ping were located in northern Hebei.

Remains of a line of fortifications (built with stamped earth and stone), comprising of lookout posts, ramparts, ditches, small and large forts, beacon towers, and stone walls blocking mountain passes, were found running approximately from the Karachin Banner in the west to the Fu-xin district in the east. This line of fortifications is alleged to be the ¡°Long Wall¡± constructed by the Yan. Many people imagine that the walls extend further to the west and east. The following are the archeological findings reported by Di Cosmo (2002: 148-50, 157), minus his own interpretation of these findings.

Several citadels and round habitations built in stone on high terrain were discovered along the line of the walls from where archeologists have recovered artifacts attributed to the Upper Xiajia-dian culture. Both outside and inside this line of fortifications, the only cultural remains are ¡°non-Chinese.¡± The archeologists believe that the original dwellers were Dong-hu. Archeological excavations in the proximity of the section of the wall near Chi-feng also reveal the presence of the Upper Xiajia-dian and the Ordos bronze cultures.12 It is obvious that the whole area was inhabited exclusively by non-Chinese, mostly pastoral people.

The wall was not built to separate nomad and farmer, but to establish a strong military presence to control the movement of people. The wall was mostly defending the non-agricultural territory. There is no evidence to support that the wall was protecting the Han Chinese settlements in areas traditionally inhabited by alien peoples engaged mainly in pastoral activities. We still do not know the precise function of the wall, and what it was actually defending.

The only basis of attributing this line of fortifications running from Karachin Banner to the Fu-xin to the work of the Yan (dating to no later than 299 BC) rests solely on the ¡°Long Wall¡± mentioned in the Shi-zhi.

The Ye section of Dongyi-zhuan states that, at the end of the Qin dynasty when the empire was plunged in chaos by rebellion (in 209 BC), tens of thousands of people started to flee from northeastern China (Qi, Zhao and Yan) to Chosun, and a Yan person named Wei-Man came (c. 206-195 BC) ¡°with a topknot wearing barbarian clothes.¡± Wei-Man was entrusted with the custody of refugees in the western frontier district, but he eventually usurped the throne of Chosun. The Han section of Dongyi-zhuan records that the king of Chosun who was thrown out by Wei-Man fled south to the [Three] Han (old Chin) area and called himself the King of Han.13

On the mainland China, both ¡°low-carbon¡± wrought iron and ¡°high-carbon¡± cast iron were present from 500 BC onwards, and ¡°medium-carbon¡± steel was common after 300 BC. It is believed that the iron culture of China, in the form of iron weapons, horse trappings, bits, axle caps, hoes, plowshares, and sickles, was transmitted to Korea through Old Yan c. 400 BC.14 Artifacts found together with iron implements in Korea proper include the finely wrought bronze daggers (slender stabbing swords, the blade still being cast separately from the hilt) and the Scytho-Siberian style animal-shaped belt buckles.

The conflicts between Old Chosun and Old Yan that were formally recorded in the Chinese dynastic chronicles suggest a fairly intimate relationship (in the form of incessant warfare, as usual between any good neighbors) having been maintained between the Mongolic Xianbei and Tungusic Ye-maek people. According to Barnes (1993: 152), the Yan kingdom was the weakest of the seven major Late Zhou feudal states, and yet produced a greater abundance of iron artifacts than Qin, the strongest state, as manifested by the several iron foundries excavated: ¡°The earliest-known iron armor is also from Yan, and this state has played a major role in initiating the Korean iron Age around 400 BC –only a century after iron production became a viable industry on the Mainland itself.¡± 15

Old Chosun had so grown in strength and domain as to interrupt, in the second century BC, the contact between the Former Han dynasty and the petty walled town states of Chin (the later period Three-Han) located south of the Han River (see Lee, 1984, p. 17). In early 109 BC, the King of Chosun invaded Liao-dong [located east of the Luan River] and killed a Han Chinese officer. Being seriously concerned about the possible alliance with the Xiong-nu, Han Wu-di (141-87 BC) launched an attack on Chosun in autumn. The King of Chosun was killed in summer of 108 BC, and Wu-di established four commanderies, thus ¡°severing the left arm of the Xiong-nu.¡±16

   
¡ã 1. Ebrey (1996: 87)

Within three decades, however, only the Le-lang commdandery in the Tae-dong River basin remained (until about 313 AD, together with the Dai-fang Commandery that was established by the Gong-sun rulers some time between 204 and 220). BC 108 represents the historical date of the Han Chinese debouchment into the lower basin of the Liao River and the northwestern coast of the Korean peninsula for the first time in East Asian history. After the fall of the Western Jin in 316 AD, the Han Chinese settlers who became isolated in the Liao River basin blended alternately with the Xianbei and the Tungus as advantage dictated. The formal Han Chinese presence in the Liao-dong area was repeated during 668-755 under the Tang dynasty. Most of the time, however, the Liao-dong had been a land contested among the Turko-Mongol, Xianbei-Qidan and Yemaek-Ruzhen Tungus peoples.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

[°¢ÁÖ]

1 Ethnohistory is a branch of anthropology that analyzes the origin, distribution, and distinguishing characteristics of the races (pertaining to the speech or culture groups), especially in regard to the development of cultures, through the analysis of archeological findings. Ethnohistory tends to respond to the current political environment in East Asia as elsewhere, imposing obvious and subtle constraints on the ways ethnohistory is pursued.

2 The area includes the region around Shenyang and sites to the north. See Nelson (1993: 108).

3 See Nelson (1993: 113-6, 158, 161). Xu Yu-lin (Nelson, 1995: 66, 79) sees the Chul-mun pottery of the Korean peninsula as closely related to the incised jars of Liao-dong. According to Nelson (1995: 10), closely related pottery is found throughout northeastern
Asia, including coastal Siberia, Korea, and Japan: ¡°It differs in construction and decorative techniques from pottery further south in China.¡±

4 In Asia, dolmen is found from India to Manchuria, but the highest density (exceeding 100,000 units) is found in Korea proper.
According to Nelson, the number of dolmen in Korea suggests their indigenous origin as well as the possibility that the Ye-maek ruling elites tried ¡°to mark their territory by means of their burial places, as occurred in the British Isles.¡± See Nelson (1993: 159, 163).
The northern-type dolmen, emerged in the late Chul-mun period, has huge slabs and capstone (weighing up to 300 tons), forming a cist-like chamber above ground, while the southern-type dolmen, emerged in the late Bronze Age, has a large capstone resting on several smaller stones at ground level with the burial in a stone cist or jar coffin in the ground underneath. Necklaces of tubular beads as well as comma-shaped beads (gok-ok) appear in burials. According to Nelson (1995: 16), dolmens in the Manchurian plain and Liao-dong peninsula reveal ¡°close connections with those in the Korean peninsula in contents as well as construction.¡±
Xu Yu-lin (Nelson, 1995: 80) contends that ¡°the Liao-dong, Shan-dong, and Korean peninsulas have influences and close relationships among them in the Neolithic.¡± The Dong-yi, who built dolmens around the Shan-dong peninsular region, were either absorbed or pushed into the Manchurian basin by the Han Chinese.

5 See Nelson (1993: 137-8).

6 See Kim (1986: 121).

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11 See also Yoon (1986: 43-58).

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The Pei River was recorded as the border between Yan and Chosun. Luan, Daling, Laio, Hun, Yalu, Cheong-cheon, and Tae-dong Rivers have been proposed by various scholars as plausible candidates for the Pei River.

Shim (2002: 302) notes that ¡°post-Qin people still considered the area in the Luan and Daling River valleys as Chosun¡± Shim quotes Huai-nan-zi, which was written in the second century BC: ¡°At the eastern end [of Han], beyond Jie-shi mountain, [we] pass through Chosun, a state of benevolent and great people.¡± Shim also quotes Yan-ti-lun, complied in the first century BC: ¡°the state of Yan is said to have been blocked by Jie-shi mountain.¡± The Jie-shi mountain is located in Chang-li prefecture to the east of the lower Luan River.

11 The excavation of a large number of bronze objects, such as knives with ringed handles, horse- and bird-motif ornaments, bell ornaments, buttons, earrings, and belt hooks places this area in a cultural context that is fully outside the Central Plain sphere.

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13 See Barnes (1993: 150).
Yu Ying-shih (Twitchet and Loewe, 1986: 447) states: ¡°active commercial contacts were taking some of the inhabitants of Yan to Korea, where they left large quantities of coin cast in Yan¡¯s mints.¡±
14 See Barnes (2001: 83-4). Nelson (1993: 174) notes that: ¡°Iron artifacts were produced in small furnaces which have been found along the North Han River, dating to the third century BC or earlier. These sites are all near sources of iron.¡± From the old Kaya sites on the southern Korean coast, primitive iron-working furnaces have been found and dated to 1st and 2nd centuries BC.

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wthong@wontackhong.pe.kr .
¨Ï2005 by Wontack Hong
All rights reserved




TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: archaeology; china; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; korea; manchuria; mongol

1 posted on 03/20/2005 6:27:44 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster; blam; SunkenCiv

Something new, ping!


2 posted on 03/20/2005 6:28:17 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Well, that sure flips the old stories on their heads.


3 posted on 03/20/2005 6:33:24 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: TigerLikesRooster
This poster posted on FR one time only, I believe the person is a well educated Chinese. This is what they posted on another thread on the ethnicitity of some of these people:

" "I detected there was an essay concerning the ethnic consist of "Wu Hu" which invaded China during the Jin Dynasty. The author's view was that the Turk which raided China later was a Caucasian tribe (there Khan described as with grenn eyes and red cheek, more evidance available) , "Wu Hu" (Xiongnu, Jie, Qiang, Di, Xianbei) were not. But according to the Chinese ancient historical annual, the Xiongnu are such Nordic tribe with red hair and blue eyes like "Wushun". And, Jie, which was a branch of Xiongnu, also described as with high Nose Bridge, and "deep" eyes. After the collapse of their ruling to Han, the Jie people was distinguished easily because of their Caucasian feature and slaughtered (more than 200,000 victims). The historical work of the later dynasties also described the remained Xiongnu people as "Long nose" and "yellow hair". Until Tang dynasty, the "Qi Hu" which is the offspring of the royal Xiongnu people, still called "Hu tou Han se" which mean's they adopt the Chinese tongue, but still "foreign" feature. Much other evidence can support the standpoint that Xiongnu are Caucasion,I don't want to illustrate any more. Some people believe the Xiongnu are Mongolian race, because the Roman historian said the Hun people who invaded were"brown skin, stocky body, slanting eyes" which are typical Mongolian trait. But, actually, the Hun who invaded Europe 5th century was not the descendant of Xiongnu. The contemporary scholars affirm they are the identical tribe just because the pronunciation of "Hun" and "Xiongnu" are approximately the same. And there is some relationship between their languege. I also want to point out that around the 5th and 6th century, there's another branch of "Hun" ruined the Persia and Northwest India, that Branch was called "White Hun" The Persian historian said that thier feature were different from "Hun", with white body. Hence, it seemed that, they were also Caucasian. Now, let's come to Xianbei, many people noticed that, in the historical book, the Xianbei people were called "Bai Lu" means white invader (thief). And in the Great Work <>, I found the following story--The Emperor Of Eastern Jin, Jin Ming Di (Shima Shao), was with yellow beard and hair, because his mother was a Xianbei female. Once he went to inspect his troop without notice, And the warriors all considered him as Xianbei people, then chased him as enemy. The folk songs at that time said, "Huang tou Xianbei jin Luoyang"--Xianbei is with "yellow head", it is quite possible that "yellow head" referred to their yellow hair and beard. Xianbei is an alliance of tribes; there might also be some Mongolian tribes in it, but the Caucasian consist was more obvious, which all Hans paid attention to it. I'm inclined to be in approval of what Mr. Peng elaborated yesterday. The contemporary Chinese people don't dwell on the ethnic origin of the nation, most of them believe they are simply Mongolian race. That's not a correct concept. The racial intermix in china began before any dynasty, but the Neolithic time. The skulls unearthed in the relics of Banpo Xi'an reveal the trait of Caucasian, exactly, the Nordish Caucasian. The Banpo civilian used to be the hybrid of Nordish and Mongolian (like the Finn today). We all know, the Banpo is the representative civilization of the Northern China Neolithic civilizations, we can infer, many other Chinese civilizations in that time were created by Caucasian or mingled people. The Hemudu in Zhejiang is the representative Neolithic civilization in Southern China. But after measuring the skulls detected there, it was extremely amazed that, they're of Negro characteristics! One renowned Chinese anthropologist stated in his work that "According to the numerous skeletons of Indo-Europe people unearthed in China and the feature of the Southern Chinese people today, the Chinese nation can't be classified into the Mongolian race simply. At an earlier time, many Chinese anthropologists also clarify that it's completely wrong to say the ancient skeletons discovered in China belong to the same race. The Mongolian couldn't be regarded as the only "Local Chinese". The Caucasian also had been inhabited in Eastern Asia since very early time. In Japan, the aboriginal Ainu people was finally confessed as the ancestor of current Japanese nation. The Ainu was the Caucasian tribe moved to the Japanese islands more than 20,000 years ago, while the Mongolian just reached Japan around 10,000 years ago. They intermixed and yielded the Japanese people now. The same procedure of intermixing also took place in Korea. Another famous event happened last year also support the idea--some researchers of biochemistry analyzed the DNA refined from the mummies in some ancient tombs in Shangdong province, and made a conclusion that these DNA correspond that of the European people. Another research discovered that the gene of Northern Chinese is more close to the Caucasian, rather than the Southern Chinese. The origin of Zhou, The third Dynasty of ancient China, is also doubtful. The time of the establishment of that dynasty is not far from the time of Aryan Expansion. The chariot used by the soldiers of Zhou just resembles the chariot used by Aryan invaders to India! More critical, the ancient Chinese work written by Mengzi said that, Zhou Wen Wang (the emperor of Zhou) is the people of "western barbarians" It's quite possible that a branch of Aryan intruded china at the moving of Aryan. Someone even suspect the origin of the Qin Dynasty, which was the subsequent dynasty of Zhou. At least, there was some independent Aryan tribes which didn't integrated with local Chinese or absorbed by local Chinese still existed in Western and central China at the time of late Zhou dynasty. It was recorded that the king of Qin attack the ruler of Zhou with some barbarous tribes but failed. That event happened a few hundred years BC, at that very time, the Bactoria in Central Asia was conquered by 4 Nomadic Aryan tribes, the origins of 3 of these tribes were definite. Now, some historians reckon the 4th tribe might be the failed Aryan tribe that moved back to Central Asia. Until Han dynasty, the "Yue zhi" (pronounced as 'rou zhi, an Aryan Tribe) still live in Ganshu province, and sometimes also find the track of their activity in Northern China. And the region east to Tianshan Mountain (in the center of Eastern Turkeystan) was distributed by Saka (A branch of Aryan, whose language belongs to the Iranian Group, known as Scythian by Westerners and 'Sai Zhong' by Chinese). Now, many scholars believe that many "Yi" and "Di" (the diverse barbarian tribes) recorded in early Chinese dynasties are Caucasian. I'm afraid the origin Xiongnu can be traced back to Scythian. Because the record revealed that their custom were exactly the same. Thus, the Chinese people nowadays contain abundant of Caucasian blood. But currently, they all belong to the same nation, that's because the ancient Chinese culture was so great that it could absorb any other races, it was a furnace to integrate all races. And the Caucasian, Mongolian created the grand Chinese civilization together."

275 Posted on 12/14/2001 02:10:41 PST by genealogy_prober [ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]

4 posted on 03/20/2005 8:18:43 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Re #4

Yes, I do remember that. Thanks for posting it again, though.

5 posted on 03/20/2005 8:27:40 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster; blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; ...
Thanks TLR and Blam.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
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6 posted on 03/20/2005 9:14:57 AM PST by SunkenCiv (last updated my FreeRepublic profile on Sunday, March 13, 2005.)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
huge slabs and capstone (weighing up to 300 tons)

Pretty good size. Do any of the Egyptian or Lebanese stones exceed that weight? These are sort of prehistoric in the sense that there is no record of the construction. There should be something in writing from these public works projects; it's hard to imagine that they could be accomplished without calculations, and invoices and lading sheets.

7 posted on 03/20/2005 11:38:44 AM PST by RightWhale (Please correct if cosmic balance requires.)
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To: RightWhale; Berosus

Baalbek -- there are three very large stones. Two of them weigh about 800 tons each. The other one is 1000 tons. I hope that Berosus will share the tale of the (if memory serves) 30,000 ton monster (carved in situ and never moved) made for a Chinese emperor.


8 posted on 03/22/2005 10:55:09 AM PST by SunkenCiv (last updated my FreeRepublic profile on Sunday, March 13, 2005.)
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To: RightWhale

Regarding Egyptian stones... the largest ever moved (if memory serves) exceeds 500 tons, during the New Kingdom (I think it was a statue of Ramses II, and was dragged down to the delta), but 200 ton stones were moved during the Old Kingdom.

The Romans used concrete quite a bit, but also quarried large stones. Caligula ("Gaius") had a number of 200 ton columns quarried in Egypt, and moved by ship to Rome. That's more impressive than just moving some large stones.


9 posted on 03/22/2005 10:59:33 AM PST by SunkenCiv (last updated my FreeRepublic profile on Sunday, March 13, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Sometimes it is remarked that we cannot move such large stones with today's technology, but I don't think that is accurate. We could blast that weight into orbit if we wanted.


10 posted on 03/22/2005 11:06:52 AM PST by RightWhale (Please correct if cosmic balance requires.)
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To: RightWhale; KevinDavis

Very nearly. The Saturn V put 150 tons into low Earth orbit (Skylab), and (despite some Russian claims) the F1 engine remains the most powerful liquid-fueled engine ever built. A "multichamber" engine (available with either single or double axes of movement) from the old Energia is actually four engines sharing some structural components (iow, welded together), each engine producing about a quarter of the single-bell F1. Five F1s (as we all know) powered the Saturn V.

Strapping together more than three of the Shuttle's SRBs would be required to throw 200 tons into orbit. Wonder how Caligula would have used that capability? ;')


11 posted on 03/22/2005 11:49:09 AM PST by SunkenCiv (last updated my FreeRepublic profile on Sunday, March 13, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Such a large launch vehicle would be possible. It would be quite a show when one of them exploded as would invariably happen from time to time. The sonic boom from the explosion would stun birds and knock over rabbits for miles on the Cape.


12 posted on 03/22/2005 11:53:18 AM PST by RightWhale (Please correct if cosmic balance requires.)
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Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

13 posted on 02/04/2006 1:40:00 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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