Posted on 08/16/2004 9:09:34 AM PDT by technomage
AP: Group Discovers John the Baptist Cave
KIBBUTZ TZUBA, Israel (AP)
KARIN LAUB
Archaeologists said Monday they have found a cave where they believe John the Baptist anointed many of his disciples - a huge cistern with 28 steps leading to an underground pool of water.
During an exclusive tour of the cave by The Associated Press, archaeologists presented wall carvings they said tell the story of the fiery New Testament preacher, as well as a stone they believe was used for ceremonial foot washing.
They also pulled about 250,000 pottery shards from the cave, the apparent remnants of small water jugs used in baptismal ritual.
"John the Baptist, who was just a figure from the Gospels, now comes to life," said British archaeologist Shimon Gibson, who supervised the dig outside Jerusalem.
However, others said there was no proof that John the Baptist ever set foot in the cave, about 2 1/2 miles from Ein Kerem, the preacher's hometown and now part of Jerusalem.
"Unfortunately, we didn't find any inscriptions," said James Tabor, a religious studies professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.
Tabor and his students have participated in the excavations.
Both Tabor and Gibson said it was very likely that the wall carvings, including one showing a man with a staff and wearing animal skin, told the story of John the Baptist. The carvings stem from the Byzantine period and apparently were made by monks in the fourth or fifth century.
Gibson said he believed the monks commemorated John at a site linked to him by local tradition.
Gibson said the carvings, the foot washing stone and other finds, taken together with the proximity of John's hometown, constituted strong circumstantial evidence that the cave was used by John.
John, a contemporary of Jesus who also preached a message of redemption, is one of the most important figures in Christianity. The discovery, if confirmed, would be among the most significant breakthroughs for biblical scholars in memory.
The cave is on the property of Kibbutz Tzuba, an Israeli communal farm just outside Jerusalem. A member of the kibbutz, Reuven Kalifon, knew of the cave's existence - the community's nectarine orchards run right up to the mouth of the cave - but it was filled with soil almost to the ceiling.
In 1999, Kalifon asked Gibson to inspect the cave more closely.
The archaeologist, who has excavated in the Holy Land for three decades, crawled through the small opening and began removing boulders near the wall of the cave. When he pushed aside one of the stones, he saw a head carved into the wall - the top of the figure he believes depicts John.
Gibson, who heads the Jerusalem Archaeological Field Unit, a private research group, organized an excavation. During the five-year project, he wrote a book, entitled "The Cave of John the Baptist," to be published later this week.
Gibson said the cave - 24 yards long, around four yards wide and four yards deep - was carved in the Iron Age, somewhere between 800 and 500 B.C., by the Israelites who apparently used it as an immersion pool.
"It apparently was adopted by John the Baptist, who wanted a place where he could bring people to undergo their rituals, pertaining to his ideas of baptism," Gibson said.
Believers would have walked down 28 stone steps. To their right, they would have discarded their clothes in a niche carved into the wall.
At the bottom of the steps, they would have placed the right foot onto a stone with an imprint of a foot. A small depression to the right of the imprint would have contained oil, to be poured over the foot for cleansing, Gibson said.
Didn't they celebrate Christmas in Cambodia together in 1968?
The grave in Jerusalem has Simon bar Jonas, Peters true name, who most non-Catholic scholars agree he was buried there....So who is right?
To be honest with you, I don't care. All I believe is Christ crucified. Jesus didn't come down from heaven to say, thou art Catholic and thus call my church Catholic.
He made the road to salvation easy. The Jewish law was so strict before Christ came.
Traditions get corrupted, dogma gets attached to doctrines as if it were the true churches teaching. Whan all in all, god gave us the way, in the Holy Bible. Nothing else matters.
If you have faith in Jesus Christ to get to heaven, then you will, if you trust in a church, you have nothing to stand on when you face judgment day..."But God, my preist told me to do this and you would let me in...". All that is required is in Romans 10, John 3:16, Rom 6:23...Anything else is legalism. Hebrews states, it is by faith alone and not by works that will get you into heaven.
So, enjoy your not so certain life by having to memorize all the traditions that even Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for.
Is immersion a part of Judaism?
The people who own the Garden Tomb have already agreed that it could not be the tomb of Christ. The Holy Sepulchre is most likely the actual site. People see the gate and assume Christ hauled the cross from there to the garden which would have been quite a feat considering how badly he was beaten. The only problem is that gate was built about 1000 years later. The actual gate is much farther into the city. Christ would have needed a cab.
Yes, Immersion was part of Judaism long before the prophecies of the coming messiah, much less his finally showing up. And it still is a practice of the Israelites to this day symbolizing the same thing it always has - repentance.
So its entirely possible that Christianity borrowed immersion and renamed it baptism? John the Baptiste wasn't doing anything unusual or new when he immersed people?
Entirely possible? If you're conjecturing, stop. Because it was picked up as a practice precisely because Christ was baptised as a witness and in accordance with the scriptures.
Baptism in water is not a requirement in Christianity; but, it is something that most do as a public witness after Christ's example. Christ charged us to be baptized as Christians; but, Christ had a different form of Baptism than that of John and scripture speaks plainly about it. Christianity is a grafted in branch to the house of Israel - the adopted child of the family of tribes as it were. If you understand that, you can understand the significance of Baptism to the Christian.
But you must understand, that Messiah is an Israelite prophetic figure. Christianity could only exist because of the messiah and is the fullfillment of Israelite prophecy.
And Christianity didn't so much borrow immersion as continue the practice. Christ stated His personal ministry was to the house of Israel only. His original apostles were tasked also to only minister to the house of Israel for a time and then were later allowed to also convert Gentiles while seeking out the Israelites around the world to minister to them. But their primary ministries remained to the Israelites. Paul was called to become the Apostle to the Gentiles and after that is when the others were able to then convert Gentiles. This is in Acts 9. Peter recieved his direction a chapter later. Then later yet, in Jarusalem, it was discussed among the others and they all then began ministering. They were all israelite or "Jews" as we call them today. Israel and true Christianity are inseperable.
Sounds like Christians should be adherents of Jesus, that converted from paganism to Judaism, and not some new religion.
Well, Christians are adherents of Jesus. The problem is that Christianity was being infiltrated and subverted in the time of the Apostles. They noted as much in their writings which became scripture.
Christianity was gaining converts away from the pagan religions and the false gods of the quaks and the downright evil folks. Their priests were losing 'tithes' from their congregants and could not live on zero offerings. This insensed the priests which led to many perversions of the Christian faith. As time went on, the perversions grew until today, people claim Christianity based on the appearance of something to do with Christianity in their speach. So what presents itself as Christian and what is actually Christian is two entirely different things. If you know scripture, you can easily tell the difference. If you don't, you practically need a playbook to keep track of what appears to be rampant hypocrisy and confusion.
Today, people follow philosophies of their own which are religions in and of themselves. It is no different than budhism in that regard. But then they go to Christian scripture for anything not addressed in their philosophy and want to be called Christian. If you're a christian, you follow Christ. If you are a Budhist, you follow Budha, if you are a Calvanist, you follow Calvin. One master. Christ said you cannot have two. You either follow Christ or the philosophy. People have been deluded into believing they can do both. But Christ addressed that issue directly and without apology and explained why stating that one will keep to one master and dispise the other. If your mom and dad disagree on something - which do you like more, the one that votes against what you want, or the one that sides with you.
What then if it is Christ you have to side against because you like the philosophy better... QED.
It helps to know what a Christian is rather than make assumptions with regard to the label just because someone uses it. Walter Martin made a career of explaining the differences and didn't get to all the groups by far. But he gave it a good effort. He was more forgiving of one group than his successors have been; but, can't fault the guy.
We called 'em suckerbites.
I pick God.
Jesus was to ascend to his God. He is telling her that he is not God, since he is going to ascend to his God. He also tells her that God is her Father as well as his Father.
Does God have a God that He worships? No. How many Gods are there? ONE. YHWH is God, not Jesus.
God appeared to Moses on the mountain as a Bush, is God a bush? God said he will cover his own with his outstreached feathers - is he a chicken?
Christ does not deny his divinity in that passage.
We are made up of body soul and spirit - which part of the three is us? Our bodies are made up of arms, legs, organs, etc. Which part is actually the body. God is One. Beside him there are not other Gods. That is scripture. But the Holy spirit is God and Christ is God. It doesn't mean there is more than one God. It means that God appears and functions in different ways but is nonetheless God in any form He chooses to present Himself. I don't see the conflict here.
Here's a nice experiment: Put water in a vacuum tube, evacuate the air from the tube. Put it under 230mm of gas pressure and reduce the temp
to 0 degrees. Monitor with thermometer obviously. When the temp hits 0 degrees, the water will be frozen at the bottom of the tube, liquid in the middle and gas at the top all at the same time. Still water; but, three things at once. Which part of the three isn't water?
Thank you, broadsword, for the refreshing breeze of rationality. Much appreciated.
It isn't the Gate to the Garden, it's from the Cross site to the garden.... There are 2 sites to choose from.
God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. All three separate entities, yet all are one.
Incidentally, from one of your earlier posts:
[30] I and [my] Father are one.
If they are one, why did they have conflicting wills in the Garden of Gethsemane?
Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Also, where does the following come from?
[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
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