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Are you (Catholics) Saved?
Orbis ^ | May 4, 2013

Posted on 05/05/2013 10:16:01 AM PDT by NYer

Are you saved?

Have you ever been asked this question? Has anyone ever told you that Catholics think they can work their way into Heaven?

The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works - that we can “work” our way into Heaven. And, the Bible does not teach that we are saved by “faith alone.” The only place in all of Scripture where the phrase “Faith Alone” appears, is in James 2:24, where it says that we are not justified (or saved) by faith alone. However, if works have nothing to do with our salvation, then how come every passage in the New Testament that talks about judgment says we will be judged by our works, not by whether or not we have faith alone? (See Rom 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Ptr 1, Rev 20 and 22, 2 Cor 5, and many, many more verses).

If we are saved by faith alone, why does 1 Cor 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

As Catholics we believe that we are saved by God’s grace alone. We can do nothing, apart from God’s grace, to receive the free gift of salvation. We also believe, however, that we have to respond to God’s grace. Protestants believe that, too. However, many Protestants believe that the only response necessary is an act of faith; whereas, Catholics believe a response of "faith and works" is necessary, or, as the Bible puts it in Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love." (Just as the Church teaches.)

St. Paul said he needed to work out his salvation with "fear and trembling." If anyone professed their faith in Jesus it was Paul. If he felt so assured of his salvation because of his faith alone in Jesus, why then would he be trembling, and have to work out his salvation?

So, the next time someone asks you if you are saved, the Catholic should reply:

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)." ♥


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholicism; christianity; salvation; theology
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1 posted on 05/05/2013 10:16:01 AM PDT by NYer

To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 05/05/2013 10:16:20 AM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)

To: NYer

bump


3 posted on 05/05/2013 10:17:39 AM PDT by vladimir998

To: NYer
Poking a stick in a fire ant mound on a Sunday morning ...

I'll pass
4 posted on 05/05/2013 10:18:22 AM PDT by tx_eggman (Liberalism is only possible in that moment when a man chooses Barabas over Christ.)

To: tx_eggman
It's not that you can quote the Bible to prove just anything, but when you have a 3D yin/yan logical situation covering a span of time you really do need a lot of quotes to cover all the aspects.
5 posted on 05/05/2013 10:34:05 AM PDT by muawiyah

To: NYer

I’ll come back later when the fireworks are in full swing. :)


6 posted on 05/05/2013 10:35:27 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)

To: NYer

Former Southern Baptist, confirmed Roman Catholic. I’m safe! :)


7 posted on 05/05/2013 10:43:08 AM PDT by poobear (Socialism in the minds of the elites, is a con-game for the serfs, nothing more.)

To: tx_eggman; NYer
I'll pass

I'll pass on this hornet's nest too.

8 posted on 05/05/2013 10:44:34 AM PDT by Mark17 (My body is in California, but my heart is in the Philippines)

To: NYer; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; Springfield Reformer; ...

Peter Kreeft [professor of philosophy at Boston College and The King’s College, author of numerous books, and together with Ronald K. Tacelli, SJ, “Twenty Arguments for the Existence of God”].

Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus! www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

As for not teaching salvation by works, the distinction btwn grace and “merit” as a reward due to God’s faithfulness, by which the below is argued to refer to, versus actually morally gaining justification, is lost among most RCs.

Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis). (Catholic Encyclopedia> Sanctifying Grace)

“nothing further is wanting to the justified [baptized and faithful], to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life.” (Trent, Chapter XVI; The Sixth Session Decree on justification, 1547)

“If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.” (Trent, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 32. Also see The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919 ed., Decree on Justification, Chapters V, VI, VII, X, XIV, XV, XVI) (emphasis mine)

Shortened, this teaches, “If anyone says that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God does not truly merit eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself, let him be anathema.”

As for the straw man RCs depend upon to denigrate sola fide (while evangelicals are the one who show the most works):

Calvin states in his Institutes, “With good reason, the sum of the gospel is held to consist in repentance and forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 5:31)” (p. 592); and, “surely no one can embrace the grace of the gospel without betaking himself from the errors of past life into the right way, applying his whole effort to the practice of repentance” (Book III, p. 593). “Repentance has its foundation in the gospel, which faith embraces” ( Book III, Chapter 3, p. 593)

And in his Commentaries, Calvin understands that, “The proposition that faith without works justifies by itself is false, because faith without is void.” (John Calvin, Commentaries, Volumes I-XXII (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1981), Commentary on Ezekiel 18:14-17)

In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is,

a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]

This is what I have often said, if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit. If the tree is green and good, it will not cease to blossom forth in leaves and fruit. It does this by nature. I need not first command it and say: Look here, tree, bear apples. For if the tree is there and is good, the fruit will follow unbidden. If faith is present works must follow.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:340-341]

“We must therefore most certainly maintain that where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 246, footnote 99]

“Thus faith casts itself on God, and breaks forth and becomes certain through its works. When this takes place a person becomes known to me and to other people. For when I thus break forth I spare neither man nor devil, I cast myself down, and will have nothing to do with lofty affairs, and will regard myself as the poorest sinner on earth. This assures me of my, faith. For this is what it says: “This man went down to his house justified.” Thus we attribute salvation as the principal thing to faith, and works as the witnesses of faith. They make one so certain that he concludes from the outward life that the faith is genuine.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

“Thus, faith must be exercised, worked and polished; be purified by fire, like gold. Faith, the great gift and treasure from God, must express itself and triumph in the certainty that it is right before God and man, and before angels, devils and the whole world. Just as a jewel is not to be concealed, but to be worn in sight, so also, will and must faith be worn and exhibited, as it is written in 1 Peter 1, 7: “That the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire,” etc.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2:245-246]

In those therefore in whom we cannot realize good works, we can immediately say and conclude: they heard of faith, but it did not sink into good soil. For if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, “the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.” It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341-342]

“All believers are like poor Lazarus; and every believer is a true Lazarus, for he is of the same faith, mind and will, as Lazarus. And whoever will not be a Lazarus, will surely have his portion with the rich glutton in the flames of hell. For we all must like Lazarus trust in God, surrender ourselves to him to work in us according to his own good pleasure, and be ready to serve all men. And although we all do not suffer from such sores and poverty, yet the same mind and will must be in us, that were in Lazarus, cheerfully to bear such things, wherever God wills it.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:25]

“This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

“Works are a certain sign, like a seal on a letter, which make me certain that my faith is genuine. [cf. 1Jn. 5:13] As a result if I examine my heart and find that my works are done in love, then I am certain that my faith is genuine. If I forgive, then my forgiving makes me certain that my faith is genuine and assures me and demonstrates my faith to me.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 247, footnote 106]

“Hence the beginning of goodness or Godliness is not in us, but in the Word of God. God must first let his Word sound in our hearts by which we learn to know and to believe him, and afterwards do good works.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:339]

“When works follow it becomes apparent that we have faith…” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 247, footnote 106

“..that alone can be called Christian faith, which believes without wavering that Christ is the Saviour not only to Peter and to the saints but also to you....Such a faith will work in you love for Christ and joy in him, and good works will naturally follow. If they do not, faith is surely not present: for where faith is, there the Holy Ghost is and must work love and good works.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:21-22]

“For it is impossible for him who believes in Christ, as a just Savior, not to love and to do good. If, however, he does not do good nor love, it is sure that faith is not present. Therefore man knows by the fruits what kind of a tree it is, and it is proved by love and deed whether Christ is in him and he believes in Christ. As St. Peter says in 2 Pet. 1, 10: “Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble,” that is, if you bravely practice good works you will be sure and cannot doubt that God has called and chosen you.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:40]

“But here we must take to heart the good example of Christ in that he appeals to his works, even as the tree is known by its fruits, thus rebuking all false teachers, the pope, bishops, priests and monks to appear in the future and shield themselves by his name, saying, “We are Christians;” just as the pope is boasting that he is the vicar of Christ. Here we have it stated that where the works are absent, there is also no Christ. Christ is a living, active and fruit- bearing character who does not rest, but works unceasingly wherever he is. Therefore, those bishops and teachers that are not doing the works of Christ, we should avoid and consider as wolves.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 1:93]

Christ is the priest, all men are spiritual lepers because of unbelief; but when we come to faith in him he touches us With his hand, gives and lays upon us his merit and we become clean and whole without any merit on our part whatever. We are therefore to show our gratitude to him and acknowledge that we have not become pious by our own works, but through his grace, then our course will be right before God...[Sermons of Luther 1:152]

“For if your heart is in the state of faith that you know your God has revealed himself to you to be so good and merciful, without thy merit, and purely gratuitously, while you were still his enemy and a child of eternal wrath; if you believe this, you cannot refrain from showing yourself so to your neighbor; and do all out of love to God and for the welfare of your neighbor. Therefore, see to it that you make no distinction between friend and foe, the worthy and the unworthy; for you see that all who were here mentioned, have merited from us something different than that we should love and do them good. And the Lord also teaches this, when in Luke 6:35 he says: “But love your enemies, and do good unto them, and lend, never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:101]

“Therefore we must close our eyes, not look at our works, whether they be great, small, honorable, contemptible, spiritual, temporal or what kind of an appearance and name they may have upon earth; but look to the command and to the obedience in the works. Do they govern you, then the work also is truly right and precious, and completely godly, although it springs forth as insignificant as a straw. However, if obedience and God’s commandments do not dominate you, then the work is not right, but damnable, surely the devil’s own doings, although it were even so great a work as to raise the dead...And St. Peter says, Ye are to be as faithful, good shepherds or administrators of the manifold grace of God; so that each one may serve the other, and be helpful to him by means of what he has received, 1 Peter 4:10. See, here Peter says the grace and gifts of God are not one but manifold, and each is to tend to his own, develop the same and through them be of service to others.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:244]

In addition, upon hearing that he was being charged with rejection of the Old Testament moral law, Luther responded,

And truly, I wonder exceedingly, how it came to be imputed to me, that I should reject the Law or ten Commandments, there being extant so many of my own expositions (and those of several sorts) upon the Commandments, which also are daily expounded, and used in our Churches, to say nothing of the Confession and Apology, and other books of ours. Martin Luther, [”A Treatise against Antinomians, written in an Epistolary way”, http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_against_the_antinomians.html]

The Westminster Confession of Faith states:

Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love. [Westminster Confession of Faith, CHAPTER XI. Of Justification. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/wcf.htm]

The classic Methodist commentator Adam Clarke held,

The Gospel proclaims liberty from the ceremonial law: but binds you still faster under the moral law. To be freed from the ceremonial law is the Gospel liberty; to pretend freedom from the moral law is Antinomianism.[Adam Clarke Commentary, Gal. 5:13]

Likewise on on Titus 1:16 (”They profess that they know God; but in works they deny, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” KJV):

Full of a pretended faith, while utterly destitute of those works by which a genuine faith is accredited and proved. [Adam Clarke Commentary, Titus 1]

To which the Presbyterian commentator Mathew Henry concurs: “There are many who in word and tongue profess to know God, and yet in their lives and conversations deny and reject him; their practice is a contradiction to their profession.” [Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible, Titus 1]

Contemporary evangelical theologian R. C. Sproul writes,

The relationship of faith and good works is one that may be distinguished but never separated...if good works do not follow from our profession of faith, it is a clear indication that we do not possess justifying faith. The Reformed formula is, “We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.”[[“Essential Truths of the Christian Faith,” Google books]

Present day evangelical Calvinist Oxford theologian Alister McGrath points out, “It can be shown that a distinction came to be drawn between the concepts of merit and congruity; while man cannot be said to merit justification by any of his actions, his preparation for justification could be said to make his subsequent justification’ congruous’ or ‘appropriate.’” “Iustitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification,” vol. L; p. 110 http://www.equip.org/articles/justification

Also, rather than the easy believism Rome associates with sola fide, in Puritan Protestantism there was often a tendency to make the way to the cross too narrow, perhaps in reaction against the Antinomian controversy as described in an account (http://www.the-highway.com/Early_American_Bauckham.html) of Puritans during the early American period that notes,

“They had, like most preachers of the Gospel, a certain difficulty in determining what we might call the ‘conversion level’, the level of difficulty above which the preacher may be said to be erecting barriers to the Gospel and below which he may be said to be encouraging men to enter too easily into a mere delusion of salvation. Contemporary critics, however, agree that the New England pastors set the level high. Nathaniel Ward, who was step-son to Richard Rogers and a distinguished Puritan preacher himself, is recorded as responding to Thomas Hooker’s sermons on preparation for receiving Christ in conversion with, ‘Mr. Hooker, you make as good Christians before men are in Christ as ever they are after’, and wishing, ‘Would I were but as good a Christian now as you make men while they are preparing for Christ.’”

More: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Reformation_faith_works.html


9 posted on 05/05/2013 10:48:17 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)

To: NYer

Pray to Mary,Bow down before the idols of the saints,Light lots of candles,And pay the priest to hold lots of masses to pray you out of purgatory or limbo.Even then there is no guarentee.


10 posted on 05/05/2013 11:13:36 AM PDT by Craftmore

To: NYer
Are you saved? Have you ever been asked this question?

I hope so, and NO.
Stupid questions.

The sort of question only a fanatic would ask. Cultural hand grenades, so to speak.

The absolutely best proselytizers don't love to hear themselves talk. They teach by example.

11 posted on 05/05/2013 11:20:28 AM PDT by publius911 (Look for the Union label, then buy something else.)

To: Craftmore; NYer
No, no, Craftmore. We don't bow down before idols of the saints. We worship felt banners now.

Do try to keep up to date.

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.

.

.

.

'Cept maybe NYer.

12 posted on 05/05/2013 11:24:07 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Takes one to know one, and vice versa.)

To: NYer

God knows. Thy will be done.


13 posted on 05/05/2013 11:34:55 AM PDT by ex-snook (God is Love)

To: daniel1212

The problem with depending on works or using them to determine genuine salvation is that a person can add good works to intellectual assent and think they’re good wit God, and yet not demonstrate a changed heart and life.


14 posted on 05/05/2013 11:36:33 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

To: publius911
Are you saved? Have you ever been asked this question?

I hope so, and NO. Stupid questions.

Why would only a fanatic ask those questions and why are they stupid?

IS going to hell preferable?

If you're not saved, you're going to hell. Is it really *fanatical* to be concerned with someone else's eternal future?

What should the saved do? Ignore everyone else and let them go to hell?

15 posted on 05/05/2013 11:41:02 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

To: daniel1212
"As for the straw man RCs depend upon to denigrate sola fide (while evangelicals are the one who show the most works):"

Sola Fide is a strange and contradictory dogma adopted by the Reformation. Faith is an act of the intellect assenting to a truth which is beyond its grasp and is therefore itself an act of the will and a work. Professing that we are saved by faith alone asserts that we are the authors of our own Salvation and is a corruption of the Catholic doctrine that Actual Grace must be cooperated with by the recipient through works of mercy.

Peace be with you.

16 posted on 05/05/2013 11:45:22 AM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)

Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: Natural Law; daniel1212
Faith is an act of the intellect assenting to a truth which is beyond its grasp and is therefore itself an act of the will and a work.

Wrong. Faith is not mere intellectual assent. Even the demons have that and tremble.

Here is GOD'S definition of faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Saving faith is not mere intellectual assent kind of believing, it's a receiving and trust.

John 1:12-13 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Saving faith is a receiving kind of faith as John states, something that goes deeper than intellectual assent. Something that changes the heart and when that heart change happens, you KNOW it. Salvation is a GIFT, something that cannot be earned, deserved, or paid off, but must be received.

18 posted on 05/05/2013 12:00:05 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

To: All
Oh - it's going to be one of those threads :)

Before his death, Jesuit theologian Cardinal Avery Dulles warned that a “thoughtless optimism” about salvation had become a serious problem. He suggested that “more education is needed to convince people that they ought to fear God who, as Jesus taught, can punish soul and body together in hell”.... Cardinal Avery Dulles is listed as one of ...the ten greatest Catholic intellectuals in American history... [Catholic Caucus]

Who, then, can be saved?

Catholics can be saved if they believe the Word of God as taught by the Church and if they obey the commandments.
Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found.
Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled.
Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will.
Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice.

God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted. But that same grace brings obligations to all who receive it. They must not receive the grace of God in vain. Much will be demanded of those to whom much is given.

-- concluding paragraph (formatting mine), from the thread Who Can Be Saved?. Article by Cardinal Avery Dulles

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her...
from the thread Promising Salvation to Non-Catholics: A Sin against Charity

It “is not the case,” [Cardinal Levada] said, as some have argued, "that the Church of Christ can subsist in churches outside the Catholic Church."
-- from the thread “Somewhat surprised” Cardinal Levada tries to clarify Vatican statement on non-Catholic churches

The multiplicity of theological positions present within the Catholic Church. These positions vary according to which premises or postulates are used in reflecting on the sources of revelation, according to the methodology employed, and according to the cultural tradition within which theology does its speculation. On the first bases, the two principal philosophical premises are the Platonic, stressed in Augustinianaism; and the Aristotelian, emphasized in Thomism. On the second level, theologies differ in terms of their mainly biblical, or doctrinal, or historical, or pastoral methodology. And on the third basis, the culture of a people helps to shape the theology they develop, as between the more mystical East and the more practical West, or the more reflective Mediterranean and the more scientific Anglo-Saxon. The Church not only permits these diversities but encourages them, always assuming that theologians who are Catholic are also respectful of the rule of faith and obedient to the magisterium of the hierarchy under the Bishop of Rome.
-- from the thread Catholic Word of the Day: THEOLOGICAL PLURALISM, 11-10-09

"....do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing....
-- Matthew 6:3b

No Salvation Outside the Church
The “Necessity” of Being Catholic (Ecumenical Caucus)
Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
The Great Heresies [Open]
Why Can't Protestants Take Communion in a Catholic Church
(Audio) My Advice to Catholic Parents: Don't Let Your Kids Date Non-Catholics

The Radio Replies Series: "The Failure of Protestantism"
Radio Replies Volume One: Protestantism Erroneous
Radio Replies Volume One: Luther
Radio Replies Volume One: Anglicanism
Radio Replies Volume One: Greek Orthodox Church
Radio Replies Volume One: Wesley
Radio Replies Volume One: Baptists
Radio Replies Volume One: Adventists
Radio Replies Volume One: Salvation Army
Radio Replies Volume One: Catholic Intolerance
Radio Replies Volume One: "Outside the Church no salvation"

At Long Last..... [New President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity]
Cardinal Levada: ‘Union with the Catholic Church is the Goal of Ecumenism’
Congregation for the Defense of the Faith's June 29 2007 statement, approved by Pope Benedict XVI:
Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church”

“Somewhat surprised” Cardinal Levada tries to clarify Vatican statement on non-Catholic churches
Vatican Church Declaration: A Radical Departure from Traditional Teaching
Pope's declaration of Catholic primacy has protestants, other faiths miffed
'Kill the pope!' [WND's Joseph Farah on the Vatican announcement re "true Churches"]
Nobody's picking a church fight
No, I'm Not Offended [R. Albert Mohler, Jr./Southern Baptist Theological Seminary]
[PCUSANEWS] Stated Clerk issues statement to Presbyterians concerning latest Vatican declaration
Pope's Anti-Protestant Diatribe Signed for Pope by Sex Molestation Advocate, Cardinal Levada!
Pope: Some Christian Denominations Not True Churches
The churches that aren't ["what is the point of religious dialogue with the Vatican?"]
Cardinal says Protestants overreacted to Vatican document, seeks to reassure them
If it isn't Roman Catholic then it's not a proper Church, Pope tells Christians
Protestants aren't proper Christians, says Pope
Vatican says other Christian churches "wounded" (Non-Catholics not fully Christian)
Vatican reiterates hardline on primacy of Catholic Church
Survey of recent news articles
Pope's comments irrelevant to non-Catholics (CNN Opine)
The Roman Catholic Church on Non-Christians and Salvation [Catechism excerpts]

Do Protestants consider Catholics to be Christians? [open]
Can Members Of The Catholic Church Be Members Of The Church Triumphant Of Jesus Christ? (Vanity)

19 posted on 05/05/2013 12:02:25 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)

To: Mount Athos
Cherry picking verses never ends well.

Here is the WHOLE sentence in Philippians. Verse 12 is only part of a sentence, not the whole thing.

Philippians 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

For the believer, we CANNOT contribute our own good works to our salvation because it's not even us doing it. It's God Himself.

20 posted on 05/05/2013 12:04:30 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

To: Natural Law

I’ll jump into this horner’s nest. First there is the work that Christ did on the Cross. From there, Faith in Christ is the bedrock foundation where everything else flows. Works that proceed from Faith is a testimony of Christ and the Faith in Him. Works without faith is mere noise (a clanging bell, or something like that), as Paul wrote in one of his letters. Works flows from faith, and is a testimony of faith. A lot of Holy Spirit involved here, so there is not any man-made formulaic list of do this and do that. So there is a lot of “seek ye first” involved.

Go ahead, pick it apart. I don;t claim to be a theologan.


21 posted on 05/05/2013 12:13:01 PM PDT by Fred Hayek (The Democratic Party is now the operational arm of the CPUSA)

To: metmom

The point I’m making is not faith vs works, it’s certainty of salvation.

Read what I wrote again:
Is the biblical attitude of fear and trembling towards ones salvation consistent with the authors belief of easy certainty?


22 posted on 05/05/2013 12:13:16 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)

Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: Alex Murphy; metmom
If we could ALL get on the same page, and on the same field (God's Word is the final authority), this question would be answered within a few Scriptures.

As it is, I'll get the popecorn and Milkduds ready :)

24 posted on 05/05/2013 12:18:35 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)

To: NYer; Old Sarge; NorthernCrunchyCon; UMCRevMom@aol.com; Finatic; fellowpatriot; MarineMom613; ...

LESSON James 1:22-27

Beloved: But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself and went his way and presently forgot what manner of man he was. But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work: this man shall be blessed in his deed. And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue but deceiving his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation and to keep one’s self unspotted from this world.


25 posted on 05/05/2013 12:43:34 PM PDT by narses

To: NYer

Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
—Jesus (Matthew 7:21)


26 posted on 05/05/2013 12:44:32 PM PDT by Ge0ffrey

To: metmom
LESSON James 1:22-27

Beloved: But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself and went his way and presently forgot what manner of man he was. But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work: this man shall be blessed in his deed. And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue but deceiving his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.

27 posted on 05/05/2013 12:45:21 PM PDT by narses

To: Craftmore

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


28 posted on 05/05/2013 12:46:22 PM PDT by narses

"Regarding the debate about faith and works: It's like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important."
 - C.S. Lewis.

29 posted on 05/05/2013 1:01:02 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)

To: Natural Law
Professing that we are saved by faith alone asserts that we are the authors of our own Salvation and is a corruption of the Catholic doctrine that Actual Grace must be cooperated with by the recipient through works of mercy.

One cannot be the author of his own salvation if he is dead and destitute of any means or merit to obtain it. If you understood Reformation theology you would know that it holds that God enables spiritually dead man to be able to respond to God and who gives him faith, thus man can claim not credit. The elect do what they normally would not and could not.

But while it hold that it is precisely faith that appropriates justification, the faith that justifies must be the kind that effects the "obedience of faith" toward its Object. And which works justify one as having true faith. The faith that justifies is a faith that confesses. (Rm. 10:9,10)

Salvation by grace under Catholicism means that the call of God is not due to "any merits existing on their parts," but by God's grace they, "who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace." (Trent, Cp. V.)

Yet it is by an actual holiness of heart (infused righteousness via baptism) that one is counted righteous:

The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God (cf. Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii; can. xi). Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis),

She also allows for justification apart from baptism, under contritio caritate perfecta, which works ex opere operantis:

If the contrition be perfect (contritio caritate perfecta), then active justification results, that is, the soul is immediately placed in the state of grace even before the reception of the sacrament of baptism or penance, though not without the desire for the sacrament (votum sacramenti). If, on the other hand, the contrition be only an imperfect one (attritio), then the sanctifying grace can only be imparted by the actual reception of the sacrament (cf. Trent, Sess. VI, cc. iv and xiv). — Catholic Encyclopedia> Sanctifying Grace

No one needs to understand all of this to be born again, as "The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit." (Psalms 34:18)

In Scripture the lost come to Christ as contrite damned + destitute sinners, casting all their faith on the mercy of God in Christ to save them, confessing the Lord Jesus in baptism, and being born again they went on to serve Him. But the problem is that of religion without regeneration, that treats souls as regenerate due to undergoing a ritual as infants and answering some questions, but without a day of salvation under a real conviction of sin, and personal repentance directly toward God and faith in Christ.

30 posted on 05/05/2013 1:03:09 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)

To: Mount Athos
I really wonder what you think of how incredibly and utterly dishonest the author of the article you cited was. Let's look at it again -

Indeed lets look again, as there is absolutely no real contradiction. The canons you cite are disallowing salvation by works apart from the grace of God through Jesus Christ, as if a soul "may be justified before God by his own works...without the grace of God through Jesus Christ ;" "and to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace , he were able to do both," and "that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help , man can believe.."

My statement of what canon 32 teaches is accurate, that,

“If anyone says that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God does not truly merit eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself, let him be anathema.”

“If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.” (Trent, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 32)

Is the biblical attitude of fear and trembling towards ones salvation consistent with the authors belief of easy certainty?

It is you who are guilty of misrepresenting what i said, which is not that of a belief of easy certainty, but one that requires saving faith to evidence "things which accompany salvation," (Heb. 6:9) contrary such souls as the majority of liberal RCs whom Rome counts and treats as members in life and in death.

31 posted on 05/05/2013 1:22:35 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)

To: poobear
Former Southern Baptist, confirmed Roman Catholic. I’m safe! :)

Former Roman Catholic, born again Christian. I now know I’m safe!

32 posted on 05/05/2013 1:24:27 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

To: NYer

It seems to me that Luke 18:9-14 would be instructive with regard to this question.


33 posted on 05/05/2013 1:32:00 PM PDT by rwa265

To: NYer

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I believe that our works are the evidence of our faith (a gift from God; I also believe God gives us the desire to work for him after we accept his gift of salvation.


34 posted on 05/05/2013 1:40:14 PM PDT by Jude in WV

To: NYer
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Apparently the previous verse doesn't apply to Catholics...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We will be saved from God's wrath...You have to look around in the bible a bit to find out what God's wrath is and it's non aplication to Christians...

Or, you can ingore the sciptures and twist each verse to say what you want it to say...

35 posted on 05/05/2013 1:41:25 PM PDT by Iscool

To: poobear
Former Southern Baptist, confirmed Roman Catholic. I’m safe! :)

Sorry, but you have to give up eternal security to become a Catholic...

36 posted on 05/05/2013 1:43:19 PM PDT by Iscool

To: Iscool
Izzy it is good to see you crawling out of a hole again.
You said that you would be willing to listen to Catholic CD’s but you have yet to send me an address where I can send you the Tim Staples one. You do know that it is free and all you have to do is listen to it don't you?
37 posted on 05/05/2013 1:51:34 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)

To: NYer

Of course Catholics are saved by their Baptism that washes away the sin.

But if we were baptized as a child, then we continually, every month or six weeks put ourselves on a schedule for the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation. Some people call it Confession.

We know we are sinners and must always seek the forgiveness of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that we received in Baptism through this sacrament.


38 posted on 05/05/2013 2:32:04 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

To: Craftmore

Why do you post these things that are not true about the Catholic Church?


39 posted on 05/05/2013 2:34:47 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

To: Alex Murphy

Thanks for bumping the thread.

Some of your links have some mistaken information posted, however.


40 posted on 05/05/2013 2:38:07 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

To: narses

“Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important.”

~C.S. Lewis


41 posted on 05/05/2013 2:39:49 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

To: NYer

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Romans 10:13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 2:3-4
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Acts 2:38-39
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

John 10:27-30
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

John 20:31
But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

1 John 5:4
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


42 posted on 05/05/2013 2:42:31 PM PDT by Old Yeller

To: Alex Murphy
Ooops! Sounds like Cardinal Avery Dulles is not only out of sync with his own Church but with Jesus himself who said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) So much for the much vaunted "unity" of the faith.
43 posted on 05/05/2013 2:48:40 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

To: Mount Athos
The point I’m making is not faith vs works, it’s certainty of salvation.

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God". (1 John 5:13).

Yes, I know that I am saved! I have that certainty!

44 posted on 05/05/2013 2:55:45 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)

To: boatbums
Transubstantiaton is the answer.

From lots of Protestant Bibles too!

 John 6:53 
New International Version (©2011)
Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

New Living Translation (©2007)
So Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.

English Standard Version (©2001)
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
So Jesus said to them, "I assure you: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves.

International Standard Version (©2012)
So Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves.

NET Bible (©2006)
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And Yeshua said to them, “Timeless truth I speak to you: Unless you eat the body of The Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: If you don't eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have the source of life in you.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

American King James Version
Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

American Standard Version
Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

Darby Bible Translation
Jesus therefore said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Unless ye shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of man, and drunk his blood, ye have no life in yourselves.

English Revised Version
Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Weymouth New Testament
"In most solemn truth I tell you," said Jesus, "that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no Life in you.

World English Bible
Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves.

Young's Literal Translation
Jesus, therefore, said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, If ye may not eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and may not drink his blood, ye have no life in yourselves;

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."


45 posted on 05/05/2013 3:00:58 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

To: Salvation
Of course Catholics are saved by their Baptism that washes away the sin.

But if we were baptized as a child, then we continually, every month or six weeks put ourselves on a schedule for the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation. Some people call it Confession.

We know we are sinners and must always seek the forgiveness of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that we received in Baptism through this sacrament.

Then baptism did not really save anyone.

Hebrews 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 9:24-29 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 10:14-18 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

John 10:27-29 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Note that Jesus says in John 3:16, that those who believe HAVE eternal life. Possess it at the present time. They HAVE it before the die and He promises in John 10 that we will never lose our salvation.

There's no need for continual working to keep it by baptism and *reconciliation*.

Believers have already been reconciled and are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

46 posted on 05/05/2013 3:04:39 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

To: metmom

**Then baptism did not really save anyone.**

Yes it did. What about the baby that dies at two months after it was baptized at one month?

What about the child that falls and is accidentally killed before he/she reaches the age of reason.

What about the person on their deathbed who is baptized by the priest visiting them? They also are saved.

What about someone like me who went in for a heart procedure this last week, but received the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sin which removes all sin. If I had died on the doctor’s table, all the sin would have been gone?

Think about the Sacraments, please. You’re a smart lady and I know you are familiar with these facts.

Or check out my FR homepage for more information on the Sacraments.


47 posted on 05/05/2013 3:10:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

To: metmom

**Then baptism did not really save anyone.**

I forgot one.

What about the adult convert who is baptized at the Easter Vigil — all the sins washed away, and then is killed in an auto accident on the way home? Or even the next week?


48 posted on 05/05/2013 3:11:55 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

To: Mount Athos
Is the biblical attitude of fear and trembling towards ones salvation consistent with the authors belief of easy certainty?

See post 46 for some verses on certainly of salvation.

Here are some more....

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2Corinthians 5:17-19 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

49 posted on 05/05/2013 3:16:55 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

To: NYer

I have a Ph.D. in Theology from a Jesuit University, and my B.A. and M.A. from well-known Evangelical colleges. I have taught theology on the college-level, and have numerous published books on biblical and theological subjects. After a lifetime of reflection and experience, here is my two cents:

I believe in the ecumenical creeds of the Church.

I believe in salvation by faith.

I also believe that “faith without works is dead.”

It seems to me (as an Evangelical) that the Catholic concern for seeing the “fruit” of salvation in someones life “for we were saved unto good works...” is wholly biblical.

Unfortunately, many who belong to the Catholic Church, as well as in Protestant denominations, lack any evidence of true faith. I do not believe that membership in any church guarantees salvation, which requires a personal commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior - and Jesus is “Lord” when we obey what He says: “Why do you call me Lord when you do not do what I say?”

Those who uncharitably attack other Christians on this forum are thereby revealing their spiritual immaturity: “But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy” (James 3:17)

Finally, my hope and prayer is that Christians will agree regarding our shared faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and present a united front (as much as possible) in an increasingly hostile world.


50 posted on 05/05/2013 3:23:42 PM PDT by tjd1454 (`)


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