Posted on 11/19/2012 5:43:55 PM PST by kjam22
Interesting discussion yesterday with a variety of opinions. Just curious what some here might believe and why...
“Free will is a sort of imperfection, since, if what God would wish for all of us is to be good, then free will is a trait which could lead us astray.”
Well, if good is not possible without free will, then it’s not really an imperfection, even from that perspective. The imperfection only crops up when people, through free will, choose evil. Looking at it from the other perspective means that only robots are perfect, but robots can never love, never make sacrifices, and never do anything virtuous at all. So, they can’t be perfect, according to God’s standard.
“Is it possible that, “Satan” is just another word for the evil that people commit when they do use their free will?”
Well, not if you believe in the Bible. It’s pretty clear that Satan is a being as real as you or I, even though all the details of his story aren’t filled in. If you want to cast him as a personification of evil and not a real being, then you are flirting with gnosticism or something, but not Christianity.
That is your mind reading that makes that assumption - NOT my post. You don't have a clue as is it evident!
Mankind IS creative and has done wonderful things. Evil was here since the beginning so in-spite of evil - mankind not only has the capacity to do great things, it can chose to do good or evil!
Evil is real and it's only weapon is deception! Next you will be saying God isn't real. One decides who they chose to focus on - GOD or satan.
You must know your enemy before you can defeat him!
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph 6:12
Satan deceived you already through your thoughts/understanding/assumption that he is not real!
Jesus defeated satan at the Cross. Obviously, you have chosen/free will to NOT BELIEVE God because you believe satan/evil is not real.
"Jesus turned, and said unto Peter, Get you behind me, Satan: you are an offense unto me: for you consider not the things that be of God, but those that be of men (human understanding)."
You too are presuming too much.
That I choose to not believe in a “Satan”, is not the same as not believing in God.
I still “believe” that Satan is not real, and is nothing but a personification of what people perceive as evil.
Evil is real, and the forces of good and evil are ever present, all around us. However, that doesn’t require the existence of a being that personifies or embodies the characteristics of evil.
I’m not denying that evil does occur. Nobody can deny that.
What I deny, or am in doubt about, is the need to create a creature or being which represents the characteristic of evil.
I also don’t believe that, in order to have free will, that the existence of evil is necessary.
Your definition of Satan has you believing that “he” is winning some sort of battle against me. That is ludicrous. Evil does exist, but it doesn’t have to be represented by some insidious creature which is looking to corrupt one’s mind every chance he or it gets. To me, Satan is more of a fantasy than anything real, and humankind has invented or conjured up such creatures throughout history.
I believe in a higher power, and I don’t really know what attributes that higher power has, but even there, mankind has taken it upon itself to give that “God” a lot of human-like characteristics. The existence of a God does not need for there to be some opposing powerful creature.
So you know evil is real, yet you don't want anything that represents the characteristic of evil? Evil does have characteristics - How do you know good from evil? How do you what to resist? "So humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you". James 4:7
I also don’t believe that, in order to have free will, that the existence of evil is necessary.
With your free will what would you choose if there is ONLY good? One either follows God or satan.
""No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.." NO ONE includes you, also. No one means no one.
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge HIM, and HE will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5,6
Your definition of Satan has you believing that “he” is winning some sort of battle against me.
You don't think he exists or needs characteristics - I'll say only those who are deceived by him will think that. Along with those who don't think God exists but will attest to some higher power and refuse to call HIM, The Almighty God. Humble yourself, HE knew you before you were even born and His Name is Our Father, Creator of All. He KNOWS ALL.
I believe in a higher power, and I don’t really know what attributes that higher power has, but even there, mankind has taken it upon itself to give that “God” a lot of human-like characteristics.
READ HIS WORD. Get to know HIM instead of relying of what others say! GOD is love, and it is deeper, higher, wider than you can ever understand. One grows to know HIM and never finishes. The more one knows HIM, the more they want to know more of HIM. With your 'higher power idol' you can never do that! God IS a personal God, He wants to be known, He loves and wants us to love HIM with our free will. He forces no one! Come freely or don't come at all! Love is never controlling.
Satan has been defeated but he is kept alive by those who embrace him unknowingly and carry out deeds associated with him. He is a liar and has come to KILL/ROB/DESTROY. If there aren't embracing GOD alone, they surely are embracing satan.
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have LIFE, and have it abundantly". John 10:10
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies". John 8:44
When He sent His disciples out He said, “Beware of men,” (Matt. 10:17). Jesus wanted us to know this: the devil can use people to lead us astray. Through words of invitation into sin; through false teaching, or through subtle influence he can defeat us. ONE of the wiles of the devil is to use people to corrupt us.
Without GOD, one is one their own and they cannot defeat satan as they are already one of his. Chose God with your free will as there are two masters. Choosing HIM means getting to KNOW HIM. He is knowable as HE KNEW US FIRST before we were even born and JESUS died for our sins that kept us from God! Jesus did it all, it's our part to ACCEPT JESUS as SAVIOR. Today is the day of salvation for tomorrow is granted to no one.
Evil exists and represents everything that God is NOT! Yes, we need free will - it's your decision what you do with it. Our decision determines our destiny forever. The ALL KNOWING and ALL LOVING God even gave us a hint on what choice to make.
"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose LIFE, so that you and your children may live." Deut 30:17
Jesus answered, "I am THE WAY and THE TRUTH and THE LIFE, No one comes to the Father except through ME". John 14:6
How could there be good without bad to judge it against? I appreciate your situation and desire for concrete answers. Effectively the best answers to your questions will come from your own study of the bible and hopefully time spent at a solid, bible following church. And friendships developed with true Christians whose example will hopefully drive your continued desire to better know God thru Christ. Ask God himself thru earnest prayer. It's obviously a very important subject. The most important. Prioritize it as such and dedicate legitimate time and energy to it on a regular basis. Not just when an interesting thread shows up here or there. All the best.
God clearly has labor issues.
Lucifer chose against God: that explains why Satan is such a twisted wreck: he refused goodness. I think he realizes he has lost, but he doesn't care. He wants only to destroy.
Thank you jjr153, yeah, I found that interesting,
I would lean toward the opinion that a Jubilee is counted only when Israel is in the land, and when you consider that along with Gabriel telling Daniel to count from ‘thy people’ (and) ‘Jerusalem’ restored for the 70 sevens, and that Messiah would be cut off at 62 sevens (434 years) and not the widely held 69 sevens (483 years) and leaving just a single week, meaning I conjecture there are actually 8 weeks (56 years) and not one week or seven (years) from the cross that remained to be completed, or to say it another way, I think Jesus took the seven weeks (49 years) with the Jubilee when he began his work reading from Isaiah 61, and the 434 years (62 weeks) is exactly as Gabriel says, when he was cutoff but not for himself, but it was exactly 483 years (173,880 days, to the very day) from March 14, 445 BC counting to April 6th 32 AD as Sir Robert Anderson showed in his book “The Coming Prince”
I think the Gospel is the Jubilee,
Daniel 9:24-26 KJV
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: . . “
Let me keep it very simple for you:
We humans understand that there is right and wrong, and that there is good and there is evil.
It’s the way we were made, by God.
God gave us the capability of doing good or bad, and of being evil or good.
We don’t need a “Satan” to understand those simple facts. Satan is unnecessary, and I see it/him as something out of the imaginations of human beings, who needed an entity to represent evil. We humans are very imaginative, and we’ve conjured up evil creatures ever since our creation. I see “Satan” as just another word for “evil”. In that sense, then, Satan is real.
absolutely not...he knows that God created him, and he knows that God could destroy him if he so chose to do so.
NO! God made Adam/Eve GOOD. When sin entered into the world it affected everyone that was born afterwards with the capability of being evil.
You seem determined on blaming God for what satan/evil is responsible for. There is NO ONE good but God.
"A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone." Luke 18:18,19
The bottom line, it doesn't matter what you 'think' - it only matters what God says because HE KNOWS ALL - He knows the end from the beginning. There is only one truth. You have the choice to accept or reject it. This life isn't a guessing game - He gave us HIS WORD to guide us with our decision. You can either pass or fail and only ONE time - no do overs - because this is for eternity. On judgement day you don't get to say you didn't know - He knows every time you rejected truth to stay with 'what you understand'.
Christianity is all about faith. NO ONE can please God without faith. HE gives us His faith and He created everyone with the knowledge there is a God. It's up to us to seek HIM or not. Those who cannot humble themselves because of ego/pride - is from the pit because that is how Lucifer fell. Pride goes before the fall. We know this because God's Word tells us. Satan/evil is also known as The Destroyer.
And remember even when we 'think' we are good - compared to what God calls good - For HE IS COMPLETELY GOOD, COMPLETELY PURE - we aren't. So acting good doesn't get one into heaven - ONLY having a SAVIOR, the spotless Blood of Jesus to wash our sins (in the supernatural) and we accept HIM as Our Savior can we attain heaven. God see us now as being spotless like Jesus because HE covered us with His spotless Blood.
We can't do one thing to attain forgiveness except accept the ONE who took our place with dying for our sins. Because the penalty for sin is death.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
Salvation is a FREE GIFT - NO ONE can earn it.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH --and this NOT from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that NO ONE can boast. Eph 2:8,9
Heaven is like the Garden of Eden before Adam/Eve fell for deception - that is what God originally wanted for man. He gave them dominion over all. They in turned bowed to satan/deception and lost it all and thus everyone since has to deal with sin in the world. Jesus came to reclaim it and all souls born after them. The spirit lives forever, somewhere. Every one decides his own fate. No one can blame God - He sent His Son to redeem us. JESUS DID IT ALL FOR US at The Cross - one time for all.
The Greatest Event of All Time - The Cross.
We can, and do, make bad choices without him. We can be tempted by things in the world around us, and by our own wayward appetites and drives; and consequently there's plenty of evil that can't be linked to his interference. But there's as much evidence for his existence is there is for Socrates.
Without evil being in the world to begin with, we would never be tempted so those 'bad things/thoughts' we do - have their roots in satan/evil.
But those 'in Christ' have the power to resist satan/evil and he will flee. God did not leave us defenseless. Praising God and God's Word are our weapons - satan hates God's Word/TRUTH as he is the master of lies and he twisted God's Word to Adam to deceive him. Did God really say?
So they submitted to satan when they took the lie/evil for truth/God. The earth was then cursed. Before that there was only good on earth - because only God is good and everything HE created was good and only wants good for us!
There would be no need for God to come in the flesh and suffer our punishment for 'something imaginary'.
Gen 1:28 God blessed them. God said to them, 'Be fertile and become many. Fill the land and conquer it. Dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every beast that walks the land'.
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