Posted on 11/14/2012 9:33:31 AM PST by SeekAndFind
The following is an edited transcript of the audio.
Does it matter which Person of the Trinity we pray to? Yes, I think it matters. But being wrong about doesn't mean that it's in the category of damnable sin and maybe not even in the category of sin at all.
The Holy Spirit is sent into the world, according to John 16, to glorify the Son. And he glorifies the Son by leading us to the Son and causing us to see the Son as the ground for our access to the Father. The Son came to die for our sins in order to bring us to God. So the pattern that you find almost uniformly-I say almost uniformly-throughout the New Testament is to pray to the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. So we're said to pray "in the Spirit" in Ephesians 6:18. "Pray in the Spirit."
"Pray in the name of Jesus," I think means "on the basis of what Jesus has done to make our access to God possible," namely his blood and righteousness. So when I say, "In Jesus' name" at the end of a prayer, I mean "because Jesus died for me and rose again, covered my sins, and imparted and imputed righteousness to me, I have access to the Father." "Because of him"-that's what "In Jesus' name" means.
I know of no example or encouragement to pray... No, no, no. That's not true. I was going to say, "to pray to the Holy Spirit." But "Come Holy Spirit" is not an evil prayer to the Holy Spirit. "Come Holy Spirit."
But if you got into the habit of praying to the Holy Spirit all the time-"You're my Benefactor. I pray to you"-you would be out of sync with the pattern of the New Testament.
So my bottom line answer-and I've been asked this a lot-is to follow in general the pattern of the Bible, namely, pray to the Father in the name of Jesus by the power of the Spirit, that is, in reliance upon the help of the Spirit.
But, from time to time, "Maranatha! Lord Jesus, come!" is not a bad prayer. And "Holy Spirit, fall upon us and grant us a fresh baptism" is not a bad prayer.
So, in general, pray to the Father; but occasionally, to express their Personhood and your own love for them, telling the Spirit and the Son that you love them and that you would like them to come in fullness is a good thing.
>> “ but because His Mother interceded on behalf of the parents of the bride, Jesus did what he was requested.” <<
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After rebuking her for falling to temptation, saying “what am I to do with you woman?”
Proposition 1: Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Proposition 2: Jesus is God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
If you don’t agree with the conclusion, which of the two propositions do you reject?
But what that implies is: Trinitarians should only pray in a way that non-Trinitarians find palatable.
That's not really an answer to the question of: is the Holy Spirit a creature?
I did not say that. Your attempt to put words in my keyboard is noted. I hold in contempt, folks who do that.
You have no way of knowing whose spirit is with the Lord,
Perhaps you recognize no way of knowing such. That's OK, I guess, although it does unnecessarily limit you. Pity.
I certainly have no way of knowing that any specific soul is damned; I believe that God does indicate to us that certain souls are with Him in Paradise.
I specifically did not answer your question as my intent was to present the natural conclusions of the two primary positions and let the reader make up their own mind.
To a Trinitarian, this should be a non issue. To the Trinitarian, God-Father, God-Son and God-Spirit are all the same so it should not make a difference as to which one to pray to.
It is only the non-Trinitarian that the question has any relevance and/or requires an answer. To that basis of theology, God is different from Son and from Spirit. In my experience, non-Trinitarians place more authority on God-Father and when Jesus tells them to pray to God, the interpretation is to pray to God-Father because Jesus did not tell Christians to pray in any other manner.
So in this issue of Theology, the first operative question to the believer is ... are you a Trinitarian or a non-Trinitarian. When that issue is settled in the believer’s mind, then the answer is provided above.
Is Mary the mother of Jesus?
Is Jesus God?
Party like it’s 325 ...
And that is the kind of talk that got Arius bitch-slapped by Santa Claus.
Your studied silence on the specific question, and your terminology, inform me that you are a Unitarian.
Of course, there are two main Western forms of Unitarianism.
LOL - I have been called many things in my life but NEVER a Unitarian.
I would say that my studied silence comes from having many people over the course of my 40+ years yelling at me and telling me that their interpretation of scripture is the only one that is the right interpretation. This is what has led to Christians using labels to try and manage views and interpretations that have valid points but may not line up with their specific beliefs.
I have chosen a different path. I will present my framework for my decisions on theology (see below) and I will present scripture on the topic and then let the individual work out their own salvation in fear and trembling. Often my answers to questions of theology are questions themselves. It is an attempt to get the individual to make a choice.
My framework for my decisions on issues of the Christian faith:
First and foremost, what did Jesus teach? If I call myself a follower of Christ, I must work to adjust my life to his teachings.
Second, where Jesus does not teach on a topic, then what do the Apostles say in their teachings?
Third, if both Jesus and the Apostles are silent on a topic, what does the Old Testament say about the issue?
Lastly, if there is no teaching from Jesus, the Apostles, or in the OT, then what is the closest analogy that can be drawn. Or, if I receive a direct divine revelation on the topic, I will follow that.
For example:
#1) Homosexuality - I find no direct teaching by Jesus on homosexuality. However, both the Apostles and the OT make it very clear that it is a sin ... even an abomination. Therefor, I oppose any and all attempts to normalize or grant status to homosexuality.
#2) Worship of Mary - Neither Jesus, nor the Apostles nor the OT call for the worship of Mary. However, the OT does have prohibitions on speaking with the dead. Therefore, I can not support the Catholic tradition and catechism 971 which attempts to integrate a dead person into Christian worship.
Your methodology begins with the problematic assumption that the Protestant canon of Scripture is the only possible source of authority.
Leaving that epistemological issue aside, you move to one actual question (the prohibition on sodomy) and then an imaginary one (no one advocates that Mary be "worshipped").
If an imaginary controversy is worthy of a theoretical conclusion, why not the main question: is God a Trinity?
“He sees this miracle and calls him God. “
I don’t think using Thomas as a good proof of the Trinity is absurd, not so much because of Thomas, but because of Jesus’ response. Rather than rebuke Thomas, or correct him, He praises him. He would not have done that had Thomas addressed him in an idolatrous fashion.
Another favorite of mine:
“Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
John 14:8-9.
The gospel of John, of course, is a treasure trove of references to the divinity of Christ.
Yep. Those are valid points. Thanks.
And it goes downhill from there.
How do you read this vefrse ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
Seek YHvH in His WORD.
And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will
be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father,
Prince of Peace.
That’s your business, If you don’t think Jesus is God or that Mary wasn’t the Mother of Jesus that’s your business. My point stands. The story was in the Bible to explain His Mothers special gift as an interceder, to deny that is to deny His Word.
Yes, I follow scripture because the Apostles teach us that scripture is provided for doctrine, reproof and instruction.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Further, the scriptures teach against the traditions of men.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
So choosing to base my framework on scripture and not the traditions of men, I am choosing what to my mind is a safer road.
Your framework has some pretty serious holes in it. Do you care to comment on why you ignore the Traditions of the Church as articulated by the Early Church Fathers?
Peace be with you
Traditions of the church are traditions of men. Mat 15:9
No, the story pointed out that Jesus was quite displeased that his mother would yield to temptation and ask him for a miracle.
It was really no different than when Satan tempted him to turn stones into bread.
Mary holds on more favor with Christ than any other believer. He made that point on many occasions.
Traditions of the Church are sinful man-created alterations of God’s stated word.
The true church has only one tradition: Belief in Jesus Christ. Christ offered no traditions; he rebuked all the traditions of men that the Pharisees carried with them when thay went to Rome and founded the so-called catholic church.
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