Posted on 07/27/2006 12:06:07 PM PDT by NYer
All Christians can agree on this, that the Bible is God’s authoritative and inspired word, and ought to govern the faith and life of the Christian community. What’s in accord with Scripture is good. What contradicts Scripture must be rejected.
Opposition in the Name of Fidelity Someone Has to Have the Last Word Speaking with the Authority of Christ
The Protestant reformers, inspired with zeal for God’s word, went one step further. Under the banner of “sola scriptura” they proclaimed the Bible as the only infallible authority for Christians. That meant that both Tradition and Church authority could be opposed in the name of fidelity to Scripture.
Funny thing, however: from the outset of the Reformation, the movement that agreed on the supreme authority of the Bible disagreed bitterly on what the Bible said. The Protestant church was divided from the beginning. Nearly 500 years later, we see thousands of competing churches claiming the same Bible and sola scriptura heritage.
That’s because the Bible is a collection of written documents. And one of the truths about all written documents, even if they happen to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, is that they can be interpreted differently by different people.
The founding fathers of America knew this. That’s why in addition to providing a Constitution for the United States, they set up a court system to serve as the ongoing, living authority to interpret and apply that written document. If the country was to maintain its unity, someone in every generation would have to be entrusted with the authority to determine what was in accord with the Constitution and what was not. In the USA, that’s the responsibility of the Supreme Court.
We can also see this operating in organized sports. Every sport has a rule book. But in baseball for example, bitter arguments arise as to whether a ball is fair or foul, and whether a runner is safe or out. Umpires therefore are an absolute necessity in every game, so that someone has the final say on how the rules are interpreted and applied.
The Lord Jesus Christ is certainly no less wise than the Founding Fathers of the US government and the commissioner of baseball. In establishing His Church, He did not Himself write anything, except in sand (Jn 8:8). Instead, He established the college of the Apostles, gathered around Peter, as a living teaching authority, entrusted with passing on and teaching all that they’d received from Jesus. They did this through oral instruction and eventually some writings. Through the laying on of hands, which we know as the sacrament of Holy Orders, the Apostles in turn entrusted their teaching authority to their successors, called bishops, and imparted to them the same charism of truth that they’d received from the Holy Spirit (CCC 861-862).
These successors discerned which of the many Christian books and letters bearing names of Apostles actually were authentic and deserved to be regarded as sacred Scripture. Thanks to them, the phoney gospels of Thomas and Mary Magdalene are not read every Sunday in our churches. They also passed on and interpreted apostolic traditions that were not written down in the New Testament books, like the practice of meeting for weekly worship on Sunday, the day of the Lord’s Resurrection, rather than Saturday, which was the Jewish Sabbath. Finally, they were the ones responsible to authoritatively interpret and apply the sacred Scriptures amidst dispute and controversy, such as the fourth-century controversy over the divinity of Christ.
This teaching role of the successors of the Apostles, gathered around the successor of Peter, is called the "Magisterium,” which simply comes from the Latin word for teaching office. The Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God coming to us through Scripture and Tradition. Instead, the Magisterium is clearly under its authority — it is the servant of the Word. Its role is to faithfully safeguard the truth about God and His plan for our lives which came to full expression in the teaching and saving work of Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh. It is not to add to God’s revelation or to subtract from it, only to faithfully interpret and apply it (CCC 85-86).
The Magisterium is supposed to function much like the Supreme Court at its best, or like a good umpire. But there are a few very big differences. Neither the Constitution of the United States nor the official baseball rulebook are documents inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Bible, on the other hand, is. Neither the Supreme Court nor the World Series’ umpires have received a promise of special divine assistance. But the successors of the Apostles have. Speaking to Apostles, Jesus said “he who hears you, hears Me” (Lk 10:16). The Magisterium speaks with the authority of Christ, guided and empowered by the Spirit of Truth.
So ultimately there is no opposition between the Bible and the Magisterium of the Church. In fact they are so interdependent that the New Testament itself calls the Church “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (I Tm 3:15). Biblical authority and Church authority — you can’t have one without the other.
OK...we'll just start with one example...
James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
How do you explain this verse in view of this one???
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I suspect it may have been the Levites that didn't allow some of your books to go into the bible...
And what do you mean Luther, my guy...Luther's a Catholic...And not a very good Catholic, at that...He's one of yours...
If you think those verses cancel out what St. James said, then you would have to admit that one or the other was wrong. Was it St. Paul or was it St. James?
In the plain reading of the passages quoted, you may be tempted to claim that they must contradict each other. But they don’t, and can’t, since all scripture is true, as it is all God’s word.
The works of the law must not be confused with good works in Christ. St. Paul teaches that salvation cannot be gained by works of the law, i.e. the old covenant. Romans 3:28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. But Christ also taught that not everyone who cries out Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but rather those who do the will of the Father shall enter (Matthew 7:21-23). Those that do works in Christ will be seated at his right hand and inherit the Kingdom (Matthew 25:31-36). We must be doers of the word, not just hearers (James 1:22-27).
For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-11)
As the New Testament affirms, salvation is not through faith alone but by the good works in Christ (not the works of the law), through faith. Without faith we cannot love, and faith without love is dead.
Good point! Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, First and Second Maccabees and the additions to Esther and Daniel were never written in the Hebrew. The Old Testament canon was closed with Ezra and Nehemiah. The Jewish Council of Jamnia (90 a.d.) made certain that these books were not considered part of their canon. Romans 3:1-2
Jerome (340-420 a.d.), who learned Hebrew, to enable him to translate his "Vulgate" directly from the Hebrew scriptures, at first was not going to include these books. He was told to do it by "The Church".
This is a quote from Jerome; "As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."
The Council of Trent (1546) finally decided to canonize these books....probably because in 1536 Martin Luther had relegated these books to a special section called "The Apocrypha" in his German Bible. The canonization evidently was done out of spite. Why else would the Church have waited 1500 years?
They didn't wait 1500 years and they didn't do it out of "spite". If you knew your history you wouldn't say such things. The first Christians used the Books of the Septuagint, the Greek OT, which was used by Jews at the time of Christ. Here's some more history for you:
"Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read, in the church under the title of divine writings.'. The canonical books are:---Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, the two books of Paraleipomena(Chronicles), Job, the Psalms of David, the five books of Solomon, the twelve books of the (Minor) Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament are:---the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of S. Paul, one Epistle of S. Paul to the Hebrews, two Epistles of S. Peter, three Epistles of S. John, the Epistle of S. James, the Epistle of S. Jude, the Revelation of S. John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the transmarine Church shall be consulted." Council of Hippo, Canon 36 (A.D. 393)
"[It has been decided] that nothing except the Canonical Scriptures should be read in the church under the name of the Divine Scriptures. But the Canonical Scriptures are:Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paraleipomenon two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the Prophets, Isaias, Jeremias, Daniel, Ezechiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. Moreover, of the New Testament: Four books of the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles one book, thirteen epistles of Paul the Apostle, one of the same to the Hebrews, two of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, the Apocalypse of John." Council of Carthage III, Canon 47 (A.D. 397)
"A brief addition shows what books really are received in the canon. These are the desiderata of which you wished to be informed verbally: of Moses five books, that is, of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leviticus, of Numbers, of Deuteronomy, and Josue, of Judges one book, of Kings four books, also Ruth, of the Prophets sixteen books, of Solomon five books, the Psalms. Likewise of the histories, Job one book, of Tobias one book, Esther one, Judith one, of the Machabees two, of Esdras two, Paralipomenon two books. Likewise of the New Testament: of the Gospels four books, of Paul the Apostle fourteen epistles, of John three, epistles of Peter two, an epistle of Jude, an epistle of James, the Acts of the Apostles, the Apocalypse of John." Pope Innocent, Epistle to Exsuperius Bishop of Toulose (A.D. 405)
"That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture. ITEM, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, The Judges, Ruth, The Kings (4 books), The Chronicles (2 books), Job, The Psalter, The Five books of Solomon (includes Wisdom and Sirach), The Twelve Books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra (2 books), Maccabees (2books). The New Testament: The Gospels (4 books), The Acts of the Apostles (1 book), The Epistles of Paul (14), The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle (2), The Epistles of John the Apostle (3), The Epistles of James the Apostle (1), The Epistle of Jude the Apostle (1), The Revelation of John (1 book). Council of Carthage IV, Canon XXIV (A.D. 419)
"Now the whole canon of Scripture on which we say this judgment is to be exercised, is contained in the following books:--Five books of Moses, that is, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; one book of Joshua the son of Nun; one of Judges; one short book called Ruth, which seems rather to belong to the beginning of Kings; next, four books of Kings, and two of Chronicles --these last not following one another, but running parallel, so to speak, and going over the same ground. The books now mentioned are history, which contains a connected narrative of the times, and follows the order of the events. There are other books which seem to follow no regular order, and are connected neither with the order of the preceding books nor with one another, such as Job, and Tobias, and Esther, and Judith, and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Ezra, which last look more like a sequel to the continuous regular history which terminates with the books of Kings and Chronicles. Next are the Prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David; and three books of Solomon, viz., Proverbs, Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastes. For two books, one called Wisdom and the other Ecclesiasticus, are ascribed to Solomon from a certain resemblance of style, but the most likely opinion is that they were written by Jesus the son of Sirach. Still they are to be reckoned among the prophetical books, since they have attained recognition as being authoritative. The remainder are the books which are strictly called the Prophets: twelve separate books of the prophets which are connected with one another, and having never been disjoined, are reckoned as one book; the names of these prophets are as follows:--Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; then there are the four greater prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel. The authority of the Old Testament is contained within the limits of these forty-four books. That of the New Testament, again, is contained within the following:--Four books of the Gospel, according to Matthew, according to Mark, according to Luke, according to John; fourteen epistles of the Apostle Paul--one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews: two of Peter; three of John; one of Jude; and one of James; one book of the Acts of the Apostles; and one of the Revelation of John." Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, 2:8,12 (A.D. 426)
"We, therefore, to whom the Lord gave the task of feeding Christ's sheep', had abbot Andrew carefully examined by some outstanding men of this sacred council on the articles of the faith, the sacraments of the church and certain other matters pertaining to salvation. At length, after an exposition of the catholic faith to the abbot, as far as this seemed to be necessary, and his humble acceptance of it, we have delivered in the name of the Lord in this solemn session, with the approval of this sacred ecumenical council of Florence, the following true and necessary doctrine. Most firmly it believes, professes and preaches that the one true God, Father, Son and holy Spirit, is the creator of all things that are, visible and invisible, who, when he willed it, made from his own goodness all creatures, both spiritual and corporeal, good indeed because they are made by the supreme good, but mutable because they are made from nothing, and it asserts that there is no nature of evil because every nature, in so far as it is a nature, is good. It professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament -- that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel -- since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit. It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows. Five books of Moses, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Job, Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, namely Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; two books of the Maccabees; the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John." Council of Florence, Session 11 (A.D. 1442)
Of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Council of Trent, (A.D. 1546)
Compare Jerome's position to Augustine wih regard to the Apocrypha.
And without a Magesterium to guide us...Imagine that...
Compare the Protestants' position to that of the Apostles' with regard to the Deuterocanonicals.
As far as Jerome, he was persuaded to include the deuterocanonicals in his Vulgate since the books were so widely accepted by the Church. Refer to Jerome's defense of his inclusion of the parts of Daniel rejected by the Jews:
I don't know Titanites...Your post seems to be full of so many holes, it looks like swiss cheese...
You seem to think justification is the same as salvation...Which it is not...
But Christ also taught that not everyone who cries out Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but rather those who do the will of the Father shall enter (Matthew 7:21-23).
This part of that chapter concerns false prophets...You want us to think that doing the will of the Father is somehow connected to James 1:22-27...
What is the will of the Father??? The will of the Father is defined in the Gospel of John as believing on Jesus Christ as Saviour (John 6:39,40; 6:29)...
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
The exact case of this is noted in Acts 19:13-15...Paul calls these people vagabond Jews, exorcists...And, a description of these people is shown in Jeremiah 14:14...
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There are no Christians present here...I never knew you removes forever any thought of 'Christians' being represented in the passage...Why???
Because Jesus Christ does know the Christian intimately, and could never say that He never did...(John 10:14-27)
I have run out of time but I'll be back to look at the rest of this...If you determine I'm wrong, feel free to correct me (with scripture)...
Because........(gasp)maybe it's true?????
Jerome And The Apocrypha
Question: St Jerome was persuaded, against his original inclination, to include the deuterocanonicals in his Vulgate edition of the Scriptures. What are your comments?
Answer: True, yet he classed the Apocrypha in a separated category. He differentiated between the canonical books and ecclesiastical books, which he did not recognize as authoritative Scripture. This is admitted by the modern Catholic church:
“St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture. The situation remained unclear in the ensuing centuries...For example, John of Damascus, Gregory the Great, Walafrid, Nicolas of Lyra and Tostado continued to doubt the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books. According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church at the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the Old Testament Canon. That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent” (The New Catholic Encyclopedia, The Canon).
The practice of the Church up to the time of the Reformation was to follow the judgment of Jerome who rejected the Old Testament apocrypha on the grounds that these books were never part of the Jewish canon. These were permissible to be read in the churches for the purposes of edification but were never considered authoritative for establishing doctrine. The Protestants did nothing new when they rejected the apocrypha as authoritative Scripture. It was the Roman church that rejected this tradition and ‘canonized’ the ecclesiastical books.
Please read the following explanation from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Cajetan, a contemporary of Martin Luther:
"Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St. Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecciesiasticus, as is plain from the Protogus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage." (Cardinal Cajetan, "Commentary on all the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament," cited by William Whitaker in "A Disputation on Holy Scripture," Cambridge: Parker Society (1849), p. 424)
The apocrypha are useful for edification, but canonical in the sense that they are the rule for confirming matters of faith, no!
The Apostles were the beginning of the Magesterium.
As you can see, people can read a single, seemingly simple passage, and disagree on the interpretation of it. (Hence, the tragic growth in the number of Prot. denominations.) At some point, there needs to be an Authority. The Father sent the Son. The Son sent the Apostles. We Catholics trace our ties back to these men, and our Magesterium are their apostolic successors.
The only other solution is to flip a coim, hmmm - shall we believe Pastor X or Pastor Y or even Diego1618. It may be hard for you to believe, but there are men more wise and learned on Scripture and Theology than you, or even I. I worship in Peter's Church, not Diego1618's.
No verse in the bible conflicts with another verse. The problem is not with the bible, for it is with our understanding that we have problems.
Now you don't know that...You're taking their word for it...They're telling you the apocrypha is the inspired word of God...
But Jerome, who translated those books for your church says they aren't inspired by God and are not part of the canon...And now you don't believe Jerome...
Then I'm sure you would not mind giving me your take on Matthew 28:1?????
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.