Posted on 07/27/2006 12:06:07 PM PDT by NYer
All Christians can agree on this, that the Bible is God’s authoritative and inspired word, and ought to govern the faith and life of the Christian community. What’s in accord with Scripture is good. What contradicts Scripture must be rejected.
Opposition in the Name of Fidelity Someone Has to Have the Last Word Speaking with the Authority of Christ
The Protestant reformers, inspired with zeal for God’s word, went one step further. Under the banner of “sola scriptura” they proclaimed the Bible as the only infallible authority for Christians. That meant that both Tradition and Church authority could be opposed in the name of fidelity to Scripture.
Funny thing, however: from the outset of the Reformation, the movement that agreed on the supreme authority of the Bible disagreed bitterly on what the Bible said. The Protestant church was divided from the beginning. Nearly 500 years later, we see thousands of competing churches claiming the same Bible and sola scriptura heritage.
That’s because the Bible is a collection of written documents. And one of the truths about all written documents, even if they happen to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, is that they can be interpreted differently by different people.
The founding fathers of America knew this. That’s why in addition to providing a Constitution for the United States, they set up a court system to serve as the ongoing, living authority to interpret and apply that written document. If the country was to maintain its unity, someone in every generation would have to be entrusted with the authority to determine what was in accord with the Constitution and what was not. In the USA, that’s the responsibility of the Supreme Court.
We can also see this operating in organized sports. Every sport has a rule book. But in baseball for example, bitter arguments arise as to whether a ball is fair or foul, and whether a runner is safe or out. Umpires therefore are an absolute necessity in every game, so that someone has the final say on how the rules are interpreted and applied.
The Lord Jesus Christ is certainly no less wise than the Founding Fathers of the US government and the commissioner of baseball. In establishing His Church, He did not Himself write anything, except in sand (Jn 8:8). Instead, He established the college of the Apostles, gathered around Peter, as a living teaching authority, entrusted with passing on and teaching all that they’d received from Jesus. They did this through oral instruction and eventually some writings. Through the laying on of hands, which we know as the sacrament of Holy Orders, the Apostles in turn entrusted their teaching authority to their successors, called bishops, and imparted to them the same charism of truth that they’d received from the Holy Spirit (CCC 861-862).
These successors discerned which of the many Christian books and letters bearing names of Apostles actually were authentic and deserved to be regarded as sacred Scripture. Thanks to them, the phoney gospels of Thomas and Mary Magdalene are not read every Sunday in our churches. They also passed on and interpreted apostolic traditions that were not written down in the New Testament books, like the practice of meeting for weekly worship on Sunday, the day of the Lord’s Resurrection, rather than Saturday, which was the Jewish Sabbath. Finally, they were the ones responsible to authoritatively interpret and apply the sacred Scriptures amidst dispute and controversy, such as the fourth-century controversy over the divinity of Christ.
This teaching role of the successors of the Apostles, gathered around the successor of Peter, is called the "Magisterium,” which simply comes from the Latin word for teaching office. The Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God coming to us through Scripture and Tradition. Instead, the Magisterium is clearly under its authority — it is the servant of the Word. Its role is to faithfully safeguard the truth about God and His plan for our lives which came to full expression in the teaching and saving work of Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh. It is not to add to God’s revelation or to subtract from it, only to faithfully interpret and apply it (CCC 85-86).
The Magisterium is supposed to function much like the Supreme Court at its best, or like a good umpire. But there are a few very big differences. Neither the Constitution of the United States nor the official baseball rulebook are documents inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Bible, on the other hand, is. Neither the Supreme Court nor the World Series’ umpires have received a promise of special divine assistance. But the successors of the Apostles have. Speaking to Apostles, Jesus said “he who hears you, hears Me” (Lk 10:16). The Magisterium speaks with the authority of Christ, guided and empowered by the Spirit of Truth.
So ultimately there is no opposition between the Bible and the Magisterium of the Church. In fact they are so interdependent that the New Testament itself calls the Church “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (I Tm 3:15). Biblical authority and Church authority — you can’t have one without the other.
Matthew 16:18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Also, see tagline.
The Tower of Babel comes to mind.
A father one time took his young son and travelled to the big city to take in his first baseball series. In explaining the rules to him, the young son kept asking about the balls and strikes. How does the umpire determine which is which?
Well the father, being affiliated with the organization, had field passes and suggested his son ask the umpire after the games. It turns out that three different umpires were used for each succesive game.
Upon being asked, the first umpire replied, "I call them as I see them".
The second umpire the next day said, "I call them as they are".
After the third game, the third umpire just looked down at the boy and stated, "Kid, they ain't anything until I call them!"
And when they disagree.......
They don't.
They don't?
Then why is their a 'concern' about kneeling being a grave (mortal?) sin in some Catholic churches on, I think, the west cost?
I can give other examples from other denominations if they are needed.
Jesus was speaking to at least the '70 others' he appointed to go out and preach the Kingdom of God was at hand...They were 'babes' according to Jesus...
There wasn't a Christian in the bunch...There was no gospel to preach...
In fact they are so interdependent that the New Testament itself calls the Church “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (I Tm 3:15). Biblical authority and Church authority — you can’t have one without the other.
HOGWASH...
1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
You can't make the 'church' the pillar and ground of the truth in that verse if you even flip it upside down and read it backwards...
The pillar and ground of the truth in that verse is 'God'...And you guys want us to believe that the Holy Spirit is leading your Magisterium to all truth...I don't think so...
Then please explain to me why your Magesterium cannot admit that the resurrection occurred on a Saturday afternoon (Sabbath) and not a Sunday morning. They have successfully convinced most of organized Christianity of this false tradition for the last 1700 years. They can read as well as I can....and I see in the "Septuagint", the "Vulgate" the "Douay Rheims", and the "King James" all say that the women in [Matthew 28:1] visit the tomb Late on Sabbath and find the tomb empty. Verse 6 says "HE is risen"!
Your organization and Magesterium have built a world wide theology based upon a falsehood....a Sunday morning resurrection and conversely have convinced the entire world of the sanctity of Sunday worship. You will find no where in scripture a repudiation of the Sabbath observance. You will find no command to honor the "Day of the Sun". In fact, you will find, upon investigation, that the early church honored the Sabbath well into the third and fourth centuries.
Your Magesterium has failed you miserably in this regard to the point you should ask yourselves....WHY? Just why are they pushing this non scriptural fairy tale. What is their reason? They have even convinced their daughter churches (Protestants) of this error.
It wasn't until later translations that we began to find statements like "After the Sabbath" taking the place of the original inspired Greek. Anyone with a lick of sense ought to be asking themselves this question. "Why has the mainstream church tried to convince us of a Sunday morning resurrection when the scriptures plainly say Sabbath (Saturday)?"
What's the point of even having an outfit like the "Magesterium" if they cannot even get this simple matter correct? They do disagree with scripture as "aimhigh" has suggested.
The Magesterium should be ashamed of themselves for perpetuating this un-Biblical nonsense.
Well, let's see, so far using exactly the same Greek bible site you reference, I've verified that Mark 16:2 says "early on the first day of the week, after sunrise" and John 20:1 says "after the Sabbath, early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark", and Luke 24:1 says "on the first day of the week, at early dawn" ... so either you don't consider Mark, Luke, and John to be scriptural, or your exegesis of Matthew is subject to considerable dispute.
The verse is ambiguous, I think. It reads (no punctuation in the original!) "... in the house of God to conduct oneself which is the assembly of God the living pillar and base of the truth."
Where do the commas go? "pillar and base of the truth" seems like it could be appositive either to "God the living" or to "assembly". But God is really not the pillar and base of the truth, he's the Father of truth and the author of truth. He doesn't merely support truth or uphold it; "his word is truth" according to his Son.
Hence the usual reading, which makes "pillar and base of the truth appositive to "church of the living God".
What ever denomination you are attending should be ashamed of teaching you the unbiblical nonsense they are teaching. Historically Christians have worshiped on Sunday because that is the day our Lord was resurrected. Why do you depart from Bible literalism when it comes to this issue?
If you're such a strict Sabbath observor, why don't you put to death all Christians that are violating that law? That's what the OT law demands.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
Why?
Because, as it states in verse 17, they were a shadow of things to come.
Which proves exactly my entire point.
We'll take "em" one by one. Mark 16:2 is speaking of a different group of women. If you notice this group in verse 8 flee from the tomb trembling and bewildered... telling no one. Mary Magdalene and friends who have visited earlier at sundown the previous afternoon, run.... filled with joy, telling the Apostles [Matthew 28:8]. They tell the Apostles in [Luke 24:9-10]. In [John 20:2] they run and tell the Apostles.
The Sabbath spoken of in Mark 16:1 is the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread and is the Special Sabbath mentioned by John in 19:31. It would have occurred on a Wednesday evening /Thursday that year and is the same Sabbath that Joseph of Arimethia was attempting to entomb the body by in [Luke 23:50-54]. Mark 16:1 should actually be listed as Mark 15:48 as it continues the continuity of the scriptures in chapter 15.
Remember, chapters and verses are not divinely inspired and were left to hands of fallible men to construct.
With reference to your "early at dawn" on the "first day of the week". Dawn is an interesting word in the Greek. It is "Epiphosko" and indeed, one of the uses of this word is the day becoming light. In this particular verse in Luke 24 it means something else. The only other place in scripture where you will find the word "Epiphosko" is Luke 23:54 and the Sabbath was drawing on (beginning).
So, you see, the dawning of the first day of the week means the beginning of the first day of the week....not early morning sunrise. The Hebrews began their days at sunset. Epiphosko meant sundown in Luke and John even clarifies it further by saying it was dark.
so either you don't consider Mark, Luke, and John to be scriptural, or your exegesis of Matthew is subject to considerable dispute.
I consider the Gospels to be very divinely inspired but even Papias in section six says be careful when you read Mark as it is sometimes not in the correct order....he only wrote what he heard Peter say as he was not an eyewitness.
You folks need to dump that Magesterium....and probably hire me!
Prove it!
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
Colossians 2:8. Paul earlier is speaking of "hollow and deceptive" philosophy and tells these previously pagan Colossians to ignore anyone who criticizes them for observing God's Holydays.. Would that be your way of characterizing God's ordained celebrations....hollow and deceptive?
See post #14....I'm telling you guys, you need to dump those folks. They are leading you astray!
Actually, the text doesn't allow this interpretation. "God" is in the genitive case, but "pillar" and "ground" are in the nominative:
quae est ecclesia Dei vivi, columna et firmamentum veritatis. - Vulgatehe^tis estin ekkle^sia theou zo^ntos, stulos kai hedraio^ma te^s ale^theias - Koine
But if "pillar and ground" were being used in apposition to "God," as you suggest, they'd be in the genitive. On the other hand, "church" is in the nominative. Therefore the grammatical reading is that the "church of the living God" is the "pillar and ground of the truth."
You and I have discussed this before. The Bible proves it.
Paul earlier is speaking of "hollow and deceptive" philosophy and tells these previously pagan Colossians to ignore anyone who criticizes them for observing God's Holydays.. Would that be your way of characterizing God's ordained celebrations....hollow and deceptive?
Notice how you evaded answering my question about why don't you kill Christians for not observing your "Sabbath." Why can't you answer that? OT law demands it.
Your interpretation of Colossians is erroneous, IMO. It is exactly the opposite in fact. St. Paul is telling these Christians to not let the Jews critize them for not observing the new moons, sabbaths, feast days, etc. He clearly states they were a shadow of things to come.How could paganism be a "shadow of things to come??"
See post #14....I'm telling you guys, you need to dump those folks. They are leading you astray!
Someone is leading someone astray here and it isn't the Catholic Church.
Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.
The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.
From The Didache
"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
From The Letter of Barnabas
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).
I don't evade anything. I don't kill Christians for being deceived....would you? Pay special attention to verse 13.
Your interpretation of Colossians is erroneous, IMO.
Well, your opinion is wrong....and here is why. Colossians 2:14 Paul writes, speaking of Christ, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way....nailing it to the cross." In Ephesians 2:15 Paul says, "Having abolished in his (Christ's) flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make himself of two, one new man, so making peace.
These verses do not do away with God's Laws. The term "ordinances" is translated from the Greek, DOGMA, referring to HUMAN laws and decrees. You find this evident in Mark 7:6-9.....the traditions of men. Again, these verses are not referring to God's Law.
Our Saviour did not do away with any part of God's Law [Matthew 5:17] and this would include the Ten Commandments.
Now, why don't you explain to me why your Magesterium cannot understand the simple language of Matthew 28:1?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.