Posted on 12/03/2004 6:25:11 AM PST by Alex Murphy
It had never occurred to me that I could be involved with anything spiritually destructive...
...From my perspective, serving on the board of directors of the Association of Vineyard Churches (AVC) had always been a privilege. My wife and I developed close friendships with the other leaders'. Together we travelled to numerous countries, planted churches, and shared a vision for ministry. Led by a respected national leader, we considered ourselves elders of what was rapidly becoming a new denomination. We maintained a unified sense of mission and purpose as we pursued what we believed God was leading us to do.
One week, during a leadership conference in the mid- western part of the United States, several of us were invited to a private meeting. We were to be introduced to the "prophets" who were slated to have a major impact on the future of our movement. Since we were already enthusiastic about the use of spiritual gifts to enhance contemporary church life, our curiosity spurred us to accept the invitation to this landmark meeting....
.... The prophets began to inform us that in the last days, the Lord was restoring the fivefold ministry of apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists to the church. We were challenged to accept the arrival of apostles and prophets because today's church already had plenty of teaching, pastoring, and evangelising. The arrival of the prophets and apostles would lead to the world's last and greatest revival. The prophets revealed that we had been chosen as the people and the movement that would lead Christians into this final display of power in the last days....God had revealed to the "prophet" that he and our Association of Vineyard Churches were the chosen ones.
(Excerpt) Read more at hnlc.org.au ...
Cutting to the chase, this section (found much lower in his Foward), well characterizes the spiritual and scriptural state of the Vineyard movement at that time, as it was the same thing I saw occur in my local congregation:
After a steady diet of the prophetic, some people were rapidly becoming biblically illiterate, choosing a 'dial-a-prophet" style of Christian living rather than studying God's Word. Many were left to continually live from one prophetic 'fix" to the next, their hope always in danger of failing because God's voice was so specific in pronouncement, yet so elusive in fulfilment. Possessing a prophet's phone number was like having a store- house of treasured guidance. Little clutched notebooks replaced Bibles as the preferred reading material during church services. Some began to fake the shaking and eye fluttering symptoms they had been told were signs of the Holy Spirit coming upon them. They hoped the ministry team would recognise the signs of God and rush to their sides, lifting their hands and praying, 'More, Lord!" Shaking, laughing, weeping, and eye twitching always ensured that the parishioner would attract the immediate attention of the leaders and their peers. One conference speaker, addressing 8,000 people, discouraged the use of reference books, commentaries, and language tools for sermon preparation. Rather, the pastors were exhorted to determine their Sunday messages through listening for prophecies during long walks with the Lord. Something was dangerously wrong in the movement. One of my own church board members refused to make any decision until his hands got "hot," indicating that his choice was wise. Disturbing symptoms were definitely beginning to show up in my own fellowship......All of this seemed very comforting at the time, but I always wondered how far the magic "Satan Shield" extended- 100 yards of perimeter? Two feet? Was there a time limit, say midnight, for example, before Satan's minions could again return to their normal, attacks? How long did the bread and fish "kryptonite' ward off psychic duplication of God's "voice"? Some of us were suckers for this kind of manipulation. My feelings of guilt were conjured up by suggestions that I had exerted too much human leadership and control in the church. All of my peers were confessing their sin of control and letting go, so I followed suit. Despite the fact that Scripture nowhere advocates this misinterpretation of Matthew chapter seven, and in fact commands order in the church (I Cor. 14:17-19), chaos reigned in my church because I had come to believe I needed to forfeit my duty to maintain order. I had almost lost my commitment to presenting a clear gospel message to visiting nonbelievers and instead allowed subjectivity to reign over reasoning from the Scriptures. I needed to repent and become a true shepherd again. As my wife and I prepared to attend what would be our last Vineyard board of directors meeting, we rehearsed what we would say: how we needed to eliminate the swirl of subjectivity that had entered our church; how we needed to get back to the basics of Christian evangelism and discipleship; how we needed to restore Bible study to our members' daily lives. We didn't want to cause trouble. We had formed close friendships with these people, loved them, and considered them an important part of our lives. But we could no longer remain silent concerning the truth.
During the series of meetings, various leadership concerns were raised about the effect "prophetic" influences were having on the core of our theology. Some of the leaders who dared to reveal their misgivings were quickly warned that the "prophet," the "one whose words never fall to the ground,' had supernaturally heard our conversations and would report them to the national leader for disciplinary action. Since 'Big Brother" was watching us, we were forbidden to discuss -these issues with other board members. Other directors began to share "words" that God had spoken to them for the direction of our movement. One director claimed God had told him that the pure church was the cell church, and that we should abandon public Bible teaching and evangelism altogether for small group meetings. Some heralded the position that real evangelism takes place through "signs and wonders,' when people are attracted to the Kingdom of God through 'demonstrations" of power. Some scorned the idea of evangelistic crusades. Some supported the ministry of the prophets. Others presented evidence regarding the trickery and manipulation often used by the prophets in their meetings...
...I went back to teaching the Bible in the most basic fashion I could, verse by verse. When I first announced that we were going to go through the Gospel 'of John for the better part of the year, the response of some was, 'Why the Book of John? I read that when I was a baby Christian.' Others were horrified that I would discourage shaking and twitching "in the Spirit." What had been a church of 4,400 shrank as people left to join the 'holy laughter" movement. My hate mail grew to enormous proportions. Even the movement's leader publicly denounced me, predicting that God would kill me for my 'sin." God was true to His word in the midst of the storm that our congregation endured during what we later called 'the year of slander.' Within a few months, several hundred people came to a saving knowledge of Christ. Baptisms increased simply because there were new converts to baptise. People's lives were radically changing, and the church was becoming healthy again. Attendance increased almost overnight. Within a year, we added a third service to our Sunday schedule. Currently our congregation is moving past 6,000, and our struggles are with ordinary, normal issues of Christian life. All of this because of the basics. It's really that simple (see Heb. 4:12-13; 2 Kings 22:8-13; Jer. 15:16).
It also says this about Vineyard founder John Wimber and his relationship to the "Kansas City Prophets"...
It should be noted that John Wimber's view of the "Kansas City Prophets" changed over time and he was ultimately to apologise for bringing them into the Vineyard. See the Christianity Today interview of 14 July 1997. Much more information about the "Kansas City Prophets" can be found in Bill Jackson's history of the Vineyard, The Quest for the Radical Middle.
It's sad to see people get swept up into such dangerous fads. We have a few Vineyard churches in my area, and I've heard of similar goofiness going on in some of them.
Ping to the usual suspects.....
If a pastor or elder in your church starts saying that they are a "prophet", or have a "special annointing", or if your pastor discards the scriptures, run away as fast as you can.
No joke.
Why does a church need the Word when they've got a Prophet???
</sarcasm>
Dreams and their interpretation soon moved to centre stage as prophecy conferences taught devotees to keep a pencil and notebook on their nightstands to write down each dream as it occurred. These were later interpreted for God's message. People lived on the edges of their seats, waiting for the grandiose promises of prophecies to come true. Most waited in vain. Not long after 'prophecy du jour' became the primary source of direction, a trail of devastated believers began to line up outside our pastoral counselling offices. Young people promised teen success and stardom through prophecy were left picking up the pieces of their shattered hopes because God had apparently gone back on His promises. Leaders were deluged by angry church members who had received prophecies about the great ministries they would have but had been frustrated by local church leaders who failed to recognise and "facilitate" their "new anointing.'
You bring up a good point. One of the problems with the modern day "apostles" and "prophets" is how can you disagree with their "word from the Lord"? If you really believe they are "anointed" then you must take what they say at face value, no matter how bizarre that word might sound.
Also, on a more reformed note, the basic charismatic approach to worship, etc is along the lines of "whatever is not forbidden in Scripture is permitted." This follows the Catholic/Lutheran/Anglican model. In contrast, many reformed believers, especially Presbyterians, follow the rule that "whatever is not commanded in scripture is forbidden." It's called the Regulative Principle of Worship. More info is available here The Scriptural Law of Worship.
On the one hand, you have what I'll call the "Word" Christians, the orthodox body of Protestant and Evangelical Christianity that puts a great emphasis on the Bible and exegesis, but which repudiates the activity of the Holy Spirit in supernatural manifestations like prophecy, tongues, miracles, healings, etc. This repudiation is sometimes formal (Cessationist Theology), but is often informal (they vaugely believe in the work of the Holy Spirit, but get really nervous when He actually shows up and does something). Most of these churches are quite frankly sterile, spiritually dead country clubs.
On the other extreme are what I'll call "Tongues" Christians, your Pentecostals and Charismatics. They welcome the Holy Spirit with open arms, but as the article above points out, they have little discernment or love of the Bible. To them, every supernatural manifestation is obviously of God; the fact that both natural charletans and Satanic counterfeits might work their way in never occurs to them.
The problem for the Word Christians is that nowhere in the Bible is there any justification for the belief that the gifts and callings of the Spirit died out in the first century (with the possible exception of the office of the apostle, since the stated requirement in Acts is that he be a personal witness of Jesus Christ in the flesh). Furthermore, the Tongues Christians are perfectly Biblically correct in recognizing a bapitism in the Spirit that is distinct from water Baptism (there are several examples in the book of Acts that I can dig up later if there's a need).
The problem for the Tongues Christians is that there's no Biblical justification for simply accepting what a self-proclaimed prophet says, for rolling around in the aisles of the church, for speaking publickly in tongues without a translator, etc.
The solution is to get away from the extremes in this debate, to acknowledge that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still among us, that God still sends His prophets, but that there will be counterfeits and so we need to study the Scriptures and place them in authority over any gift or calling. Rememeber that Luke, speaking for Paul, commended the Bereans for receiving Paul's message with open minds, but then searching the Scriptures daily to see if what he said was true (Acts 17:11). He also gave detailed instructions on regulating the manifestations of the Spirit to avoid chaos (1 Cor. 12-14). In regards to prophecies that we receive, 1 John warns us to test not just the prophets, but the spirits themselves who speak to us, lest we become false prophets.
My own background on this subject is kind of interesting. I was raised in the CMA and SBC, both very strong Word fellowships, and for most of the last seven years I have been in intensive studies of the Bible. I hold the Scriptures in the highest regard, and have throughout my adult life made them the sole foundation of my theology and morality. I wasn't really disdainful of charismatics, but I assumed that most of the display was just hysteria.
In the last couple of years, that's changed. It started as I studied what the Word had to say about the Spiritual gifts, and found that there was nothing at all to indicate that they were just for the first-century Church. I had also grown to intellectually acknowledge demonization, having seen a manifestation once and likewise finding no Biblical justification to discount it.
Having established that Biblical, intellecutal foundation in me, God then gave me several encounters with occultists who had real supernatural powers, and threw me headfirst into a spiritual war for a very dear friend (which is not fully resolved yet, btw, so though I can't give out the details for confidentiality reasons, prayers are solicited and appreciated). Having thus scared the crap out of me, He introduced me to someone who had some balance in his life between the Word and the Spirit.
Understand that as I share the following, I am not trying to boast, but personal testimony is needed in a discussion like this. I would also ask that those who would write me off as a kook go back and read some of my other posts. I think I come across as rational, intellegent, and logical in most of them; I'll leave it to the reader to judge.
I have received what the charismatics refer to as the baptism of the Spirit. God does sometimes speak to me and give me specific instructions to say or do something; I have yet to hear Him tell me to operate as a prophet, however, so I don't make that claim, though I've had one prophetic dream. I can sometimes discern spirits now. I have participated in deliverances, I've broken curses that God told me to in the name of Jesus, and I've been physically attacked by supernatural forces in retaliation, and had to depend on His protection.
The funny part is that I sometimes pray in tongues. To be honest, I had always considered tongues a useless gift, which is exactly why God gave it to me. I don't do it in public, it's not something I boast about, but I know that the gift still exists.
And on that note, having established my kook credentials, I have to run for a bit. I'll check back in later.
I've personally seen a number of churches destroyed through this type of belief. It starts out innocently enough until there’s no longer a focus on scriptures but on “gifts from the Holy Spirit”. It becomes more and more what God can give you then what you can give God.
In his response to Rev. Hanegraaff’s article, Pastor Siekawitch brings up a few biblical examples of Daniel. Yet never in scripture does Daniel, John, Ezekiel, or anyone else that I’m aware of go looking for visions. They’re given to people by God as God deems necessary. Case in point is Samuel who was confused when God called him to be a prophet. On the other hand there are examples in scriptures of those claiming to be “prophets” much to their downfall (please see the story of King Ahab 1 King 22).
I would be hesitant with anyone claiming that God reveal personal information about myself to others. Jeremiah never told King Zedekiah where he could find the keys to the chariot just to get him to believe that he was God’s prophet. God doesn’t play parlor tricks.
That isn't remotely the "Catholic/Lutheran/Anglican model".
A more correct understanding would be "what is required is what the church has always done and believed, whether or not that requirement is directly found on the surface of Scripture".
By contrast, just doing any old thing is innovation, which is the fast route to heresy.
I hope to comment on the rest later, but just one point. For Cessationists, the issue is not water baptism vs. spirit baptism. The issue is baptism in the Spirit subsequent to and distinct from the new birth. Water baptism does not confer the new birth.
This is an excellent recommendation, Buggman, and I believe the same approach Stipe eventually took in his own congregation.
That isn't remotely the "Catholic/Lutheran/Anglican model".
Sorry, I should have added "based on the authority of the church."
This is an excellent recommendation, Buggman, and I believe the same approach Stipe eventually took in his own congregation.
Based on this recommenation, can anyone name for us the "authentic" prophets in the Church today?
For those who've grown up in Pentecostalism,
such deplorable, hideous errors, nonsense etc. are sadly not all that new. We've seen it all--often too much for too long.
I think pride, arrogance etc. are key sins that easily result in such a slippery slope. That and needs to control; insecurities; greed etc.
The flesh is prone to all kinds of nonsense.
And in Christianity as well as other orientations THE RELIGIOUS SPIRIT is always eager to sweep such along with demonic ferver into an increasingly pharisee approach and stance.
The non-Charismatic groups--the cessationists are just as guilty of such phariseeism. They take smug comfort in being less dramatically off the wall etc. But the sins are largely the same in a bit more polite wrapper. The folks in such groups are NOT INHERENTLY NOR INATELY THAT MUCH MORE IMMUNE to the RELIGIOUS SPIRIT, pride etc. NOR is their doctrine THAT much more HOLY, PERFECT etc. There particular expressions of error are mostly just different. NO doubt their sins are more comfortable TO THEM than are the sins of the more obviously off the wall groups. Usually our own sins are more comfortable and 'righteous' to US!
I met John Wimber in Taipei where I helped guard the room where he waited and prayed before speaking to the arena. I had listened to a lot of his teaching tapes and his testimony many times. I found him very authentic and anointed--as well as authentically humble. I have always thought it was God's humbling joke to the movement and Christendom that he died falling in the shower.
I, of course, think it's essential to stay close to and IN THE SCRIPTURES for any and all believers. All the more so as dramatic end time events and forces become that much more common-place and obvious.
But I've seen whole groups go off the deep end a number of times. I think the leadership in any congregation or group needs to work earnestly and vulnerably before God and the members to BECOME HUMBLE AND STAY HUMBLE. I think it's Rick Joyner that had the vision of the great man of God cloaked in a coat of humility. And that whenever the cloak was taken off or developed great holes in it--there was real trouble to pay.
I think in part, it's wise to have folks from outside the group who have a reputation for being humble but discerning and maybe who don't always agree with the leadership--to come in periodically and give a check-up to the group.
Certainly the group leaders would do well to cultivate prophetic gifts and accurate Spirit-led, Biblical discernment within the group. I think that happens most effectively when the LEAST AMONG THEM is treated at least as honorable and respected at least as much as the greatest. Also--it is more the case when the 'greatest' literally serves the least routinely with a delight and a love of Jesus that's tangible as well as spiritually felt.
I believe that increasingly God Almighty will be cleansing and protecting the purity of all individuals and groups which earnestly seek to follow God regardless of their backgrounds and theology. But everything that can be shaken will be shaken.
There's a lot of prissy, preachy, pharisaical smugness by a lot of cessationists as being 'above all that off the wall herasy.' I consider that rank hypocrisy as well as hideously spiritually dangerous. God is likely to rub their noses in their own junk worse than they ever imagined. And they will discover that their junk is not a microgram better than the junk of the most off the wall 'hanging from the chandilier's' folks.
It's also wise to keep in mind that God has a habit of using the foolish off the wall stuff throughout SCRIPTURE to confound the wise. It's not so much what's being done or even what's being said as long as it's Biblical. It's the SOURCE, THE MOTIVATION, THE EMPOWERMENT involved.
There is no safety in denomination. There is no safety in a particular set of doctrinal precepts (all are collected and listed with their own emphases and omissions by men). There is no safety in a particular list of "we don't DOOOOO THAT!!!!!'S."
There is ONLY SAFETY IN JESUS.
Satan knows Scripture better than most Christians.
Memorizing Scriputre is good but not fool proof safety.
Doing The Word; Living out the Fruits of The Spirit; Living and walking IN JESUS; being sensitive to HIS VOICE will become increasingly crucial for survival and certainly for doing the works He calls us to do.
Humans have trouble--seemingly especially RELIGIOUS SPIRIT BOUND humans--but most of us have trouble dealing with complexity, ambiguity, tension between opposites, contradiction etc. In fact, facility in following Holy Spirit amidst such things is a very real measure of maturity in a lot of respects.
But because it's such a CHALLENGE to navigate such things, humans have almost a knee-jerk, inherent, compulsive habit of rushing to one end of a continuum or the other and declaring that end as the total absolute truth of an issue or situation.
Sometimes, that's right. It's hideously wrong to murder, rape, etc. Period.
But sometimes, that's not right. A lot of times when believers get into p*ssing contests, declaring that those on the opposite end of the continuum are absolutely and abjectly wrong--it's a GOD BOTH/AND thing that they are yelling at each other over. God is on both ends as HIS SPIRIT LEADS IN THE SITUATION and those wanting to truly go on with God will tune into that and flow WITH GOD accordingly.
But that's not human. We have to have OUR TURF. WE HAVE TO BE RIGHT. THEY HAVE TO BE WRONG or we won't sleep well at night. God is going to require all of us to increasingly grow up about such pettiness.
I'm NOT talking about ecumunicasim sp. which I think in normal terms is evil.
But there is a flowing IN GOD'S SPIRIT which erases all manner of petty distinctive battle lines that we ALL MIGHT BECOME FITTLY AND FUNCTIONALLY, EFFECTIVELY JOINED TOGETHER AS HIS BODY.
I'm reminded of a group of children playing together. And another mother brings her youngster to play with the group. And the resident mother introduces the youngster that's already known to the group and instructs her little Susy to scoot over and make room for Mary to join into the circle.
Susy dutifully scoots over evidently obediently. Mary sets down. Susy seems quite obedient and complient. But she's like the little boy still standing up inside. As soon as mother walks out of the room Susy sort of pushes Mary out of the circle and moves the circle away from Susy.
God's increasingly getting more than disgusted with such behavior between authentic believers. At some point, those insisting on being exclusionary toward those *GOD* HAS CALLED US TO BE BROTHERS AND SISTERS WITH--may well find themselves outside God's circle.
Christ did not die that we could have classic McCoy/Hatfield centuries long feuds with.
HE SAID--BY THIS SHALL ALL MEN KNOW THAT YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES--THAT YOU HAVE LOVE ONE FOR ANOTHER.
That will mean that none of us will get away with trying to throw the baby out with the bath and rationalizing that it's because the OTHERS were UNScriptural but WE were pure as the driven snow.
Said in a loving and humble way, no doubt. :-)
As a former attendee, I can say that you nailed it on the head. Bringing your Bible was OPTIONAL. You weren't going to need it, because the pastor rarely, if ever, quoted from it except to cite it, out of context, in support of whatever new revelation he had received from the Lord since last Sunday's service. I don't think the Vineyard leadership even studied the Bible for themselves. Church wasn't about studying God's prior revelations; it was about seeking new ones.
That's what she said too. I wonder if making the bible more central would be a good test of a congregation's commitment to Christianity?
Even in my Continuing Anglican church the bible is inextricably woven through every part of the liturgy. It is the foundation of our Book of Common Prayer and it provides the substance of every sermon.
I know some people have twisted the bible for evil ends but I'd rather guard against that than support a "bible free" interpretation of Christianity.
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