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To: topcat54
The sad thing is that the (conservative) Church as a whole has broken into two extremes, both of which are wrong.

On the one hand, you have what I'll call the "Word" Christians, the orthodox body of Protestant and Evangelical Christianity that puts a great emphasis on the Bible and exegesis, but which repudiates the activity of the Holy Spirit in supernatural manifestations like prophecy, tongues, miracles, healings, etc. This repudiation is sometimes formal (Cessationist Theology), but is often informal (they vaugely believe in the work of the Holy Spirit, but get really nervous when He actually shows up and does something). Most of these churches are quite frankly sterile, spiritually dead country clubs.

On the other extreme are what I'll call "Tongues" Christians, your Pentecostals and Charismatics. They welcome the Holy Spirit with open arms, but as the article above points out, they have little discernment or love of the Bible. To them, every supernatural manifestation is obviously of God; the fact that both natural charletans and Satanic counterfeits might work their way in never occurs to them.

The problem for the Word Christians is that nowhere in the Bible is there any justification for the belief that the gifts and callings of the Spirit died out in the first century (with the possible exception of the office of the apostle, since the stated requirement in Acts is that he be a personal witness of Jesus Christ in the flesh). Furthermore, the Tongues Christians are perfectly Biblically correct in recognizing a bapitism in the Spirit that is distinct from water Baptism (there are several examples in the book of Acts that I can dig up later if there's a need).

The problem for the Tongues Christians is that there's no Biblical justification for simply accepting what a self-proclaimed prophet says, for rolling around in the aisles of the church, for speaking publickly in tongues without a translator, etc.

The solution is to get away from the extremes in this debate, to acknowledge that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still among us, that God still sends His prophets, but that there will be counterfeits and so we need to study the Scriptures and place them in authority over any gift or calling. Rememeber that Luke, speaking for Paul, commended the Bereans for receiving Paul's message with open minds, but then searching the Scriptures daily to see if what he said was true (Acts 17:11). He also gave detailed instructions on regulating the manifestations of the Spirit to avoid chaos (1 Cor. 12-14). In regards to prophecies that we receive, 1 John warns us to test not just the prophets, but the spirits themselves who speak to us, lest we become false prophets.

My own background on this subject is kind of interesting. I was raised in the CMA and SBC, both very strong Word fellowships, and for most of the last seven years I have been in intensive studies of the Bible. I hold the Scriptures in the highest regard, and have throughout my adult life made them the sole foundation of my theology and morality. I wasn't really disdainful of charismatics, but I assumed that most of the display was just hysteria.

In the last couple of years, that's changed. It started as I studied what the Word had to say about the Spiritual gifts, and found that there was nothing at all to indicate that they were just for the first-century Church. I had also grown to intellectually acknowledge demonization, having seen a manifestation once and likewise finding no Biblical justification to discount it.

Having established that Biblical, intellecutal foundation in me, God then gave me several encounters with occultists who had real supernatural powers, and threw me headfirst into a spiritual war for a very dear friend (which is not fully resolved yet, btw, so though I can't give out the details for confidentiality reasons, prayers are solicited and appreciated). Having thus scared the crap out of me, He introduced me to someone who had some balance in his life between the Word and the Spirit.

Understand that as I share the following, I am not trying to boast, but personal testimony is needed in a discussion like this. I would also ask that those who would write me off as a kook go back and read some of my other posts. I think I come across as rational, intellegent, and logical in most of them; I'll leave it to the reader to judge.

I have received what the charismatics refer to as the baptism of the Spirit. God does sometimes speak to me and give me specific instructions to say or do something; I have yet to hear Him tell me to operate as a prophet, however, so I don't make that claim, though I've had one prophetic dream. I can sometimes discern spirits now. I have participated in deliverances, I've broken curses that God told me to in the name of Jesus, and I've been physically attacked by supernatural forces in retaliation, and had to depend on His protection.

The funny part is that I sometimes pray in tongues. To be honest, I had always considered tongues a useless gift, which is exactly why God gave it to me. I don't do it in public, it's not something I boast about, but I know that the gift still exists.

And on that note, having established my kook credentials, I have to run for a bit. I'll check back in later.

9 posted on 12/03/2004 9:05:36 AM PST by Buggman (Your failure to be informed does not make me a kook.)
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To: Buggman
Furthermore, the Tongues Christians are perfectly Biblically correct in recognizing a bapitism in the Spirit that is distinct from water Baptism (there are several examples in the book of Acts that I can dig up later if there's a need).

I hope to comment on the rest later, but just one point. For Cessationists, the issue is not water baptism vs. spirit baptism. The issue is baptism in the Spirit subsequent to and distinct from the new birth. Water baptism does not confer the new birth.

12 posted on 12/03/2004 9:21:38 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Buggman
The solution is to get away from the extremes in this debate, to acknowledge that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still among us, that God still sends His prophets, but that there will be counterfeits and so we need to study the Scriptures and place them in authority over any gift or calling.

This is an excellent recommendation, Buggman, and I believe the same approach Stipe eventually took in his own congregation.

13 posted on 12/03/2004 9:23:58 AM PST by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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