Posted on 07/24/2004 2:17:59 AM PDT by NYer
Our Maronite Church has acquired an old churh that was boarded up for the past 50 years. It is located in Watervliet NY. Inside the church, there is a large sign that I presume once hung outside. It reads:
Ohio Street Methodist Episcopal Church - 1850
The interior, despite peeling paint, missing plaster and years of accumulated dust, is just magnificent. We are applying to the NYS Historic Register, to have the building recognized. They have suggested that we try to find the name of the architect. In the meantime, one of their staff visited the building this week. He immediately recognized the architectural style as Greek Revival. The interior ceiling is buttressed wood. I have been to City Hall and the Library but there are no records on this church. Now, I have turned to the internet. Here are some of my questions.
The church name is odd. There is no Ohio Street in Watervliet. A google search on the name, however, turned up another property. Organized in Sedalia July 1864, located on the corner of Ohio and 4th Streets. This is from the history of Pettis County, Missouri. From your posts to the forum, I am wondering if this old church would be part of the Missouri Synod. What is that? Would there have been a connection in 1850 or 1864? Could two churches so far apart, have shared something in common, hence the same name?
In researching "Methodist Episcopal Church", I came across the history. Introduced to the US mid 18th century by Wesleyan missionaries. In that search, I notice there is also an African Methodist Episcopal Church. Are these the same? What is the difference?
In the same city, there are two Wesleyan Churches, neither one of which indicates that it is either Methodist or Episcopal. If John Wesley brought the Methodist faith to this country, why would a church call itself 'Wesleyan' but leave off 'Methodist'?
There is also a Methodist church in Watervliet, and an Episcopal Church (non denominational). Would either one of these be associated with the 'Methodist Episcopal' Church?
My head is spinning, trying to find the links that join or separate these churches. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for any input.
The Missouri Synod you're thinking of is a Lutheran denomination, whereas your church was Methodist Episcopal. World of difference.
In the 1800's, most Lutherans in America were German and Scandanavian immigrants -- you wouldn't see very many American natives who would identify themselves as Lutheran. On the other hand, the Methodists emerged from the Episcopal/Anglican church soon after the Revolutionary War. (The Anglican Church's perceived loyalty to England was part of a trigger for this.) The Methodists trace their lineage to John and Charles Wesley and George Whitfield, who were Anglican ministers in England, but who travelled to the Americas. When Weseley died, Methodism wasn't a denomination yet, but merely a movement in the Anglican church.
The Methodists became separate from the Anglicans until the 1780's, when the Methodist Episcopal church broke off from the Episcopalians, and Francis Asbury took to himself the title of "bishop." By 1816, there were 214,000 Methodists in America.
xzins will correct me if I got anything major wrong.
Yes ... I poured over that web site during the night. It is raises more questions than it answers. For example:
*In 1729 he attended the meetings of a small society which had been formed at Oxford, in which were included his brother Charles and Mr. Morgan, for the purpose of assisting each other in their studies, and of consulting how they might employ their time to the best advantage. The same year he became a tutor in the college, received pupils, and presided as moderator in the disputations six times a week. It was about this time, the society above named having attracted some attention from the regularity of their lives, and their efforts to do good to others, that some of the wits at Oxford applied to the members the name of Methodists, a name by which John Wesley and his followers have ever since been distinguished.*
Okay ... that explains the term 'Methodist'. But ....
*God raised up from among his sons in the gospel, extending their labors to Ireland and Scotland, until, in 1766, a way opened for the introduction of this same gospel into America. At this time Methodism, under the skilful hand of the Wesleys, had received a regular shape, was known as a distinct denomination, though still adhering to the Church of England*
I thought the Church of England proclaimed the Anglican faith. Wouldn't the church name then be 'Methodist Anglican'? But, wait, the article also mentions the following ....
*On his passage over to America, there being several Moravians on board, he had frequent opportunities of conversing with them, by which he learned "the way of God," particularly the way of justification through faith in Jesus Christ, and the necessity and privilege of the witness and fruits of the Holy Spirit "more perfectly." On his return to England he renewed his acquaintance with some of the Moravian ministers; and after much conversation, in which his objections to the above doctrines were fully obviated by appeals to Scripture and the experience of God's children, he says, "About a quarter before nine," (in the evening,) "while one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans, where he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation: and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death." About the same time his brother Charles was made a partaker of the like blessing. *
Who are the Moravians? And why were they reading 'Luther's' preface? Do Methodists embrace the Lutheran faith?
I seem to have vered off on a tangent here. The BIG QUESTION is the church name. Anyone with a clue that can explain the connection between two churches with the same name?
Some more information on this church. It has magnificent stained glass windows, some on a biblical theme, with the donor names etched into the glass.
It has a long communion rail with cushions on the kneeler.
There is a large pipe organ. The pipes are in working order but the console boxes need to be replaced (that's the word from someone who builds organs).
One last 'clue'. The Sanctuary and church are on the 2nd floor. In my research, I learned that the area where the church is located, used to suffer from floods (it is only a few blocks from the Hudson River and very near the point of confluence with the Mohawk River). That might explain it but ..... it's just one more piece in the puzzle.
I will be over there today taking pictures to be submitted to NYS Historical Register. I don't have a hosting site or I would post them to this thread. Sorry.
Thank you again for any feedback you can provide.
Just as there are many variations of "Baptist" and other denominations, there are many variations of Methodist and or Wesleyan.
Wesley was a member of the Anglican Church. And in that church he along with George Whitfield first developed the Methodist Societies. The American "equivalent" of the Anglican Church is the Episcopal Church (that is a VERY simplified version and I'm sure I could be corrected on the particulars). But thus the term Methodist Episcopal. (again that's an over simplification)
In the early days of the Methodist Church in America, the preachers were term circuit riders because they would ride from church to church to preach. My great-grandfather was a Wesley Methodist Circuit Rider.
Some of the divisions in the Methodist Church came over the slavery issue. One obvious division is the Methodist Episcopal Church and the African Methodist Episcopal Church.
Additional divisions came over various issues and you ended up with the Methodists, the Independent Methodists the Wesleyan Methodists, the Free Methodists...more distinctions than I could list in a single post (and without a substantial amount of research).
The origin of the Moravians actually pre-dates Luther in Bohemia and Moravia. Their an early leader challeged the church (around 1415) and was burned as a heretic. The survivors largely lived underground for a while, until the 1700s when they came to settle in the U.S. with a large community settling in North Carolina. I can't give you the distinctions of their faith.
The most prominent Methodist Church today, the United Methodist was created in 1968 when the Methodist Church merged with the Evangelical United Brethren Church.
Other posts have answerd your questions. The google search that lead you to Missouri is unrelated to your church I am quite certain.
A title search on the property ought to give information on previous owners.
You might try calling:
UNITED METHODIST CHURCH 518-273-0191
1401 1ST AVENUE, WATERVLIET NY 12189
and asking them if they are familiar with the church or can direct you to a Methodist historical society.
Here is a google link that combines Watervliet and Ohio and the Shakers. The Shakers were a fringe experientialist sect that followed Mother Ann Lee.
This statement connects them to your city:
"They struggled for five years to survive, gaining few converts, on a communal farm in Watervliet, NY (Bainbridge 1997; Robinson 1975)."
http://www.shakerwssg.org/ORIGIN%20OF%20THE%20WATERVLIET.html
How it all fits together is unclear but the mid 1800s is the era of Shaker maximum impact (small as it was).
You church may have originally been a Shaker meeting house acquired by the Methodists.
The "Methodist Episcopal" as opposed to "Methodist Anglican" is because it speaks to the "organization" of the church and not to the "history." In that it has regional bishops (episkopoi in Greek) it is "episcopal." The distinction was necessary at some point to distinguish the different denominations.
The Lutherans, Moravians, etc., are all important because they were part of the still important "protest" that was ongoing in John Wesley's day. To read other "protestants" was not an unusual thing. The Anglican protesting group had quite a bit in common with other protesting groups. Much of protester Luther's theology filtered into other protesting movements. At that time, "protestant" was not a convenient appellation as it is today. It was a description of a stance that was taken.
The African Meth. Episcopal church is a historic black church formed because of the inability of white protestants to equally incorporate black Christians. Although the northern Methodist Episcopals were very strong abolitionists, for some reason they could never incorporate black methodists in an equal manner.
The Wesleyan Church is out of the methodist tradition. It looks back to both the abolitionist movement and to Wesley's other teachings regarding Christian holiness. Wesley might have been the original abolitionist. He was a great influence on Wilberforce in England to ban slave trading among English-flagged ships. The holiness doctrine of Wesley was distinct from others in that Wesley taught that one could actually improve in holiness in this life, and that one's Christian goal in that area was to "go on to perfection." The highest holiness was agape love...the most excellent way.
The Episcopal Church is entirely distinct from the Methodist Church in the same was as it is distinct from Catholicism, even though it used to be part of Roman Catholicism, but then reverted back to its Celtic Catholic roots under Henry VIII.
NYer,
Here is another Shaker page:
http://90.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SH/SHAKERS.htm
Here's my theory:
Beginning in the late 1700s there was a Shaker community in Watervliet, NY (In 1776 Hocknell bought land at Niskayuna, in the township of Watervliet, near Albany, and, the Shakers settled there.)
Later, 1811 or so, a community was established in Watervliet, Ohio (In 1811 a community settled at Busro on the Wabash in Indiana; but it was soon abandoned and its members went to Ohio and to Kentucky. In Ohio later communities were formed at Watervliet, Hamilton county, and at Whitewater, Dayton county.)
My guess is that the NY group named a street in their town Ohio Street due to their connection with the Watervliet Ohio Shaker group. Obviously the Ohio group adopted the Watervliet name. It is reasonable that the original group would adopt a name for a street to link with their sister city in Ohio. Perhaps a meeting house was built on this location.
Shaker and other millennarian groups lost credibility and significantly declined when the predictions of William Miller and others of a return of Christ in 1844 did not materialize. There was quite a frenzy leading up to what was called the "Great Dissapointment."
My further guess is that the Methodists acquired this building from the Sakers in 1850 naming it Ohio Street Methodist Episcopal Church. By that time Ohio Street may no longer have been called that but the name had persevered due to the Shaker heritage.
Speculative, but it's my best guess.
I'll start here, since this is one I can answer without needing to check my facts.
No, they are not the same AME (and the split off AME Zion as well as the CME) are Black, the Methodist Episcopal Church was predominately white, although some white slaveoweners may have brought their slaves with them.
I'll probably be back to this thread later.
Some of your questions have already been answered, but basically the Methodist Episcopal Church was the forerunner of today's United Methodist Church, with several centuries of splits and mergers in between. See the timeline here: http://www.gcah.org/UMC_timeline.htm for more on that.
Your facility may have become surplus in one of the mergers. If there are other United Methodist churches in the area, you might see if they have archives from the closed congregation. You might also see if the local UM Bishop has any info.
Have you researched old maps and city directories. Street names change. The streets in the city where I live are a bunch of lettered streets and numbered avenues that used to have real names and all of the Martin Luther King Avenues used to be something else.
Okay, look - The leadership of the Church of England (which, except for a few missionaries and so forth was the *only* Anglican group until the American Revolution) stupidly threw the out the Methodists. They did this primarily because the leadership at the time was largely luke warm and more interested in maintaining the status quo, than anything else. Meanwhile the Methodist leadership were drawing large crowds to hear their preaching, even though they were often reduced to preaching in open air markets and fields...much larger crowds than the C of E was drawing...oh and then there were all of the conversions to Christianity which occurred among a wide variety of folks; and also what we would now describe as Charismatic sorts of phenomena (this last part is something many Methodists are still not comfortable with today)...all in all the Methodists scared the daylights out of the Anglican leadership - and the most ironic part of the whole thing is that the 'method' in Methodist started out as a simple routine of following the daily services in the Book of Common Prayer...in other words the first Methodists were, in many ways, better Anglicans than the Anglican leadership of that day...guess it was the established church thing.
Oh well, I still wonder if at least the conservative portions of Methodism might not yet rejoin the Anglican Communion at some point.
What do you think of my hypothesis in post #10?
Thank you all for your input!! It's all quite interesting - like pieces of a puzzle when they finally begin to form the picture.
Steve - I like the 'connection' you have drawn between the Watervliet 'Ohio' Street ant the one in Missouri. As it turns out, I learned today that the street was once called Ohio Street. All remnants of the Shakers in Watervliet, are gone. There is a major Shaker community in Latham, now preserved as a museum. The Ann Lee Home is there, as is her grave.
If, as you suggest, the previous owners acquired the property from the original Shakers, then they must have razed their meeting house, to replace it with the Greek Revival church.
The State Registry has requested a design of the future Sanctuary. The present layout will have to be modified and they understand that our worship space will follow the design elements of the Antiochene tradition, we are not certain just how much alteration will be allowed.
It's a fascinating adventure and I will update you with any information I learn, as the work progresses. The pastor has a clear vision in his head of how the church will look, once it is finished. The goal is to complete it by October 2005, which would also be the 100th Anniversry of this parish.
Again, thank you for the history lesson.
I don't have enough info to comment. I would agree with you that there did probably used to be an Ohio Street.
I would think it very likely that conservatives pastors would move the direction of conservative Anglican primates if our ordination were accepted as is.
After all, it is through an Anglican priest.
And, after one generation, it would cease to be an issue.
I must tell you that the Celtic Church heritage has always fascinated me and had a place in my heart.
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