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Climate Cycles in China as Revealed by a Stalagmite from Buddha Cave(Journal Review)
CO2 Science Magazine ^ | July 08, 2003 | Staff

Posted on 07/08/2003 3:48:19 PM PDT by PeaceBeWithYou

Reference
Paulsen, D.E., Li, H.-C. and Ku, T.-L. 2003. Climate variability in central China over the last 1270 years revealed by high-resolution stalagmite records.
Quaternary Science Reviews 22: 691-701.

What was done

In the words of the authors, "high-resolution records of ð13C and ð18O in stalagmite SF-1 from Buddha Cave [33°40'N, 109°05'E] are used to infer changes in climate in central China for the last 1270 years in terms of warmer, colder, wetter and drier conditions."

What was learned

Among the climatic episodes evident in the authors' data were "those corresponding to the Medieval Warm Period, Little Ice Age and 20th-century warming, lending support to the global extent of these events." Specifically, their record begins in the depths of the Dark Ages Cold Period, which ends about AD 965 with the commencement of the Medieval Warm Period, which continues to approximately AD 1475, whereupon the Little Ice Age sets in and holds sway until about AD 1825, after which the warming responsible for the Modern Warm Period begins.

With respect to hydrologic balance, the last part of the Dark Ages Cold Period was characterized as wet, followed by a dry, a wet, and another dry interval in the Medieval Warm Period, which was followed by a wet and a dry interval in the Little Ice Age, and finally a mostly wet but highly moisture-variable Modern Warm Period. Some of this latter enhanced variability is undoubtedly due to the much finer 1-year time resolution of the last 150 years of the record as compared to the 3-4-year resolution of the prior 1120 years. This most recent improved resolution thus led to the major droughts centered on AD 1835, 1878 and 1955 being very well delineated.

The authors' data also revealed a number of other cycles superimposed on the major millennial-scale cycle of temperature and the centennial-scale cycle of moisture. They attributed most of these higher-frequency cycles to cyclical solar and lunar phenomena, concluding that the summer monsoon over eastern China, which brings the region much of its precipitation, may thus "be related to solar irradiance."

What it means

Earth's climate is determined by a conglomerate of cycles within cycles within cycles within … cycles, nearly all of them totally independent of the air's CO2 concentration. Hence, to do as climate alarmists do, and call the warming of the 20th century outside the bounds of natural variability (and thus due to the concurrent rise in the air's CO2 content) is just not valid. There is nothing unusual about the Modern Warm Period, it being no more nor less than simply the most recent warm node of the millennial-scale climatic oscillation that has been operating for as long as we can determine.



TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bolide; catastrophism; cave; caves; china; climate; climatecycles; climatology; co2; darkage; darkages; environment; epa; geology; globalwarming; globalwarminghoax; godsgravesglyphs; impact; medieval; meteorology; middleages; noco2corelation; paleoclimatology; popefrancis; romancatholicism; solarcorelation; spelunkers; spelunking; stalactite; stalactites; stalagmite; stalagmites
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To: Hunble
"For example, what is the CO2 vs O2 ratio? Plants convert CO2 into O2, and if things are in balance, that ratio would remain the same.

If humans are influencing the environment faster than the biomass can process, then the CO2 vs O2 ratio will change."

Yup. I totally agree. And that's one reason why the climate change isn't necessarily a bad thing. And the predictive models tell us nothing -- they really don't know how much of a vegetation CO2 sink there is. I'm not saying climate change is bad: that's the left, politicizing science, that says that. I'm saying the science indicates that manmade climate change is occuring. let's not us on the right politicize science too: I worry very much that many here are afraid to confront that science because they think that if it's true, they have to rush out and sign Kyoto. Balderdash
21 posted on 07/08/2003 7:37:27 PM PDT by FreeTheHostages
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To: FreeTheHostages
Does the Sun play any role in climate change (global warming)?
22 posted on 07/08/2003 7:39:50 PM PDT by CharacterCounts
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To: FreeTheHostages
Perhaps you and I agree in many ways, and you did impress me with your understanding of a CO2 vs O2 ratio.

Yes, after a volcanic eruption, the CO2 levels will increase dramatically. If the biomass is healthy, it will rapidly be converted into O2 and Carbon.

I am very devoted to the concept of maintaining a healthy environment. However, the key word is "healthy" and not "untouched by humans."

23 posted on 07/08/2003 7:43:05 PM PDT by Hunble
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To: FreeTheHostages
I'm saying the science indicates that manmade climate change is occuring.

You are dead wrong. The effect is so miniscule as to be effectively incalculable. Scientists vehemently disagree whether there is any effect at all. Fred Singer is an example of one who disagrees and referred directly to the bald faced fraud in the IPCC report.

The NCAR findings were reported by the journal Science on May 1 at (http://www.sciencexpress.org), well before the normal publication date and just before hearings by Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican. Coincidence? The lead author is Ben Santer of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory; he became notorious for surreptitiously altering the text of a crucial chapter in the 1995 UN-IPCC Report on Climate Change — in order to make it conform to its politically inspired Summary for Policymakers.
1. The "scientific consensus" you've been touting doesn't exist.

2. The "scientists" flouting anthropogenic global warming have been caught committing FRAUD in the IPCC report.

Got it?

24 posted on 07/08/2003 8:17:31 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by politics.)
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To: FreeTheHostages
19,200 scientists have signed this petition stating the following:
We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.

There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.

For you to assert that a scientific consensus exists, supporting the hypothesis that humans are causing climate change, is not only wrong, it is completely irresponsible.
25 posted on 07/08/2003 8:30:51 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by politics.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach; ancient_geezer; Lancey Howard; Congressman Billybob; Grampa Dave; RandyRep
Sorry for the late Ping. I had to go put out a fire.
26 posted on 07/08/2003 9:27:11 PM PDT by PeaceBeWithYou (De Oppresso Liber!)
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To: FreeTheHostages
It's the Vostok ice core sample. It goes back 450,000 years. It's accepted science. Look it up anywhere on the web or in a science journal.

Ice Core Studies Prove CO2 Is Not the Powerful Climate Driver Climate Alarmists Make It Out to Be
Volume 6, Number 26: 25 June 2003

For the past two decades or more, we have heard much about the global warming of the 20th century being caused by the rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration that is generally attributed to anthropogenic CO2 emissions. This story, however, has always been controversial [see Smagorinsky et al. (1982) and Idso (1982) for early pro/con positions on the issue]; and with the retrieval and preliminary analysis of the first long ice core from Vostok, Antarctica -- which provided a 150,000-year history of both surface air temperature and atmospheric CO2 concentration -- the debate became even more intense, as the close associations of the ups and downs of atmospheric CO2 and temperature that were evident during glacial terminations and inceptions in that record, as well as in subsequent records of even greater length, led many climate alarmists to claim that those observations actually proved that anthropogenic CO2 emissions were responsible for 20th-century global warming.

This contention was challenged by Idso (1989), who wrote -- in reference to the very data that were used to support the claim -- that "changes in atmospheric CO2 content never precede changes in air temperature, when going from glacial to interglacial conditions; and when going from interglacial to glacial conditions, the change in CO2 concentration actually lags the change in air temperature (Genthon et al., 1987)." Hence, he concluded that "changes in CO2 concentration cannot be claimed to be the cause of changes in air temperature, for the appropriate sequence of events (temperature change following CO2 change) is not only never present, it is actually violated in [at least] half of the record (Idso, 1988)."

How has our understanding of this issue progressed in the interim? Our website provides several updates.

Petit et al. (1999) reconstructed histories of surface air temperature and atmospheric CO2 concentration from data obtained from a Vostok ice core that covered the prior 420,000 years, determining that during glacial inception "the CO2 decrease lags the temperature decrease by several thousand years" and that "the same sequence of climate forcing operated during each termination." Likewise, working with sections of ice core records from around the times of the last three glacial terminations, Fischer et al. (1999) found that "the time lag of the rise in CO2 concentrations with respect to temperature change is on the order of 400 to 1000 years during all three glacial-interglacial transitions."

On the basis of atmospheric CO2 data obtained from the Antarctic Taylor Dome ice core and temperature data obtained from the Vostok ice core, Indermuhle et al. (2000) studied the relationship between these two parameters over the period 60,000-20,000 years BP (Before Present). One statistical test performed on the data suggested that shifts in the air's CO2 content lagged shifts in air temperature by approximately 900 years, while a second statistical test yielded a mean lag-time of 1200 years. Similarly, in a study of air temperature and CO2 data obtained from Dome Concordia, Antarctica for the period 22,000-9,000 BP -- which time interval includes the most recent glacial-to-interglacial transition -- Monnin et al. (2001) found that the start of the CO2 increase lagged the start of the temperature increase by 800 years. Then, in another study of the 420,000-year Vostok ice-core record, Mudelsee (2001) concluded that variations in atmospheric CO2 concentration lagged variations in air temperature by 1,300 to 5,000 years.

In a somewhat different type of study, Yokoyama et al. (2000) analyzed sediment facies in the tectonically stable Bonaparte Gulf of Australia to determine the timing of the initial melting phase of the last great ice age. In commenting on the results of that study, Clark and Mix (2000) note that the rapid rise in sea level caused by the melting of land-based ice that began approximately 19,000 years ago preceded the post-glacial rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration by about 3,000 years.

So what's the latest on the issue? To our knowledge, the most recent study to broach the subject is that of Caillon et al. (2003), who measured the isotopic composition of argon -- specifically, ð40Ar, which they argue "can be taken as a climate proxy, thus providing constraints about the timing of CO2 and climate change" -- in air bubbles in the Vostok ice core over the period that comprises what is called Glacial Termination III, which occurred about 240,000 years BP. The results of their tedious but meticulous analysis led them to ultimately conclude that "the CO2 increase lagged Antarctic deglacial warming by 800 ± 200 years."

This finding, in the words of Caillon et al., "confirms that CO2 is not the forcing that initially drives the climatic system during a deglaciation." Nevertheless, they and many others continue to hold to the view that the subsequent increase in atmospheric CO2 -- which is believed to be due to warming-induced CO2 outgassing from the world's oceans -- serves to amplify the warming that is caused by whatever prompts the temperature to rise in the first place. This belief, however, is founded on unproven assumptions about the strength of CO2-induced warming and is applied without any regard for biologically-induced negative climate feedbacks that may occur in response to atmospheric CO2 enrichment. Also, there is no way to objectively determine the strength of the proposed amplification from the ice core data.

In consequence of these several observations, the role of CO2 as a primary driver of climate change on earth would appear to be going, going, gone; while the CO2 warming amplification hypothesis rings mighty hollow.

Sherwood, Keith and Craig Idso

References

Caillon, N., Severinghaus, J.P., Jouzel, J., Barnola, J.-M., Kang, J. and Lipenkov, V.Y. 2003. Timing of atmospheric CO2 and Antarctic temperature changes across Termination III. Science 299: 1728-1731.

Clark, P.U. and Mix, A.C. 2000. Ice sheets by volume. Nature 406: 689-690.

Fischer, H., Wahlen, M., Smith, J., Mastroianni, D. and Deck B. 1999. Ice core records of atmospheric CO2 around the last three glacial terminations. Science 283: 1712-1714.

Genthon, C., Barnola, J.M., Raynaud, D., Lorius, C., Jouzel, J., Barkov, N.I., Korotkevich, Y.S. and Kotlyakov, V.M. 1987. Vostok ice core: Climatic response to CO2 and orbital forcing changes over the last climatic cycle. Nature 329: 414-418.

Idso, S.B. 1982. Carbon Dioxide: Friend or Foe? IBR Press, Tempe, AZ.

Idso, S.B. 1988. Carbon dioxide and climate in the Vostok ice core. Atmospheric Environment 22: 2341-2342.

Idso, S.B. 1989. Carbon Dioxide and Global Change: Earth in Transition. IBR Press, Tempe, AZ.

Indermuhle, A., Monnin, E., Stauffer, B. and Stocker, T.F. 2000. Atmospheric CO2 concentration from 60 to 20 kyr BP from the Taylor Dome ice core, Antarctica. Geophysical Research Letters 27: 735-738.

Monnin, E., Indermühle, A., Dällenbach, A., Flückiger, J, Stauffer, B., Stocker, T.F., Raynaud, D. and Barnola, J.-M. 2001. Atmospheric CO2 concentrations over the last glacial termination. Nature 291: 112-114.

Mudelsee, M. 2001. The phase relations among atmospheric CO2 content, temperature and global ice volume over the past 420 ka. Quaternary Science Reviews 20: 583-589.

Petit, J.R., Jouzel, J., Raynaud, D., Barkov, N.I., Barnola, J.-M., Basile, I., Bender, M., Chappellaz, J., Davis, M., Delaygue, G., Delmotte, M., Kotlyakov, V.M., Legrand, M., Lipenkov, V.Y., Lorius, C., Pepin, L., Ritz, C., Saltzman, E., and Stievenard, M. 1999. Climate and atmospheric history of the past 420,000 years from the Vostok ice core, Antarctica. Nature 399: 429-436.

Smagorinsky, J., Bryan, K., Manabe, S., Armi, L., Bretherton, F.P., Cess, R.D., Gates, W.L, Hansen, J. and Kutzbach, J.E. (Eds.). 1982. Carbon Dioxide and Climate: A Second Assessment. National Academy Press, Washington, DC.

Yokoyama, Y., Lambeck, K., Deckker, P.D., Johnston, P. and Fifield, L.K. 2000. Timing of the Last Glacial Maximum from observed sea-level minima. Nature 406: 713-716.


27 posted on 07/08/2003 10:28:00 PM PDT by PeaceBeWithYou (De Oppresso Liber!)
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To: FreeTheHostages
Here's a chart. Show us the correlation between CO2 and temperature.


28 posted on 07/08/2003 10:52:20 PM PDT by PeaceBeWithYou (De Oppresso Liber!)
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To: FreeTheHostages
Between solar and geologic activity, human produced CO2 is but a factoid. The subduction of limestone conversion to marble produces mucho CO2, billions or trillions of tons. Weigh the foundation of Mt. Everest. India is still heading north.

Compare CO2's specific heat with methane, with or without the voume of termite farts. The biomass of ants or termites is estimated to be the equal of the human biomass. We're out weighed 2:1. Vegetarians' cellulose conversion haven't been counted in yet.

Compare the specific heat of CO2 with H2O. A trace. Human produced CO2 is but a factoid. Humidity is the culpret.

Ice, water and methane, is the secret since black smokers were discovered. We have no idea how much methane is parked on deep sea beds, but the occasional melted bubble to the surface could account for the Burmuda Triangle' ship and airship count. Neither can float through the bubble of methane, so down they go fast.

Black smokers and undewater volcanos produce heat in measures which produce the warm waters of the Pacific Ocean blamed on air's CO2. How can warm global air heat only parts of the Pacific? ...especially the part that the sun shines directly down on - equitorial between Aussyland and South America?

Modern scdience follows reseach money which follows "concerns", political and inquiring minds. Junk science in popular press motivates some scientists and many politicians and a few foundations wanting good press for environmental concerns.

Freon does not do what the UN/EPA says it does at the temperatures and pressures and concentrations in the upper atmosphere where the damage to O3 is said to occure from Freon. Freon's patent ran out so DuPont produced "the study" producing the concerns over Freon. La dee dah.

Geologic records indicate that today we are in the mid range of an 8 degree swing, up and down, over millions of years, without do gooders in and out of public office. It's likely that we're going to get much warmer and much colder. Either way, human civilization will be forced to adapt or perish. Since most people live on coasts, the body count will wash out to sea, as they did between the previous recent ice ages. Warm cycles allow widespread agriculture and human population growth. Enough to bitch.

Bacteria and algea produced the greatest atmospheric change to the troposhere endangering life as nobody knew it. O2 poisoned the planet.

And we're fussing about a change of a few dozen ppm of a CO2 molecule with a trace specific heat compared to H2O and is also is a trace molecule in number compared to H2O within in our atmosphere, where in H2O is at most 4% of our atmosphere only in the worst jungle swamp locations. Usually H2O is nearer 1% of atmospheric gasses in contenental regions.

I believe that our sun and earth will do what they do and we are little but the bacteria on the surface of one of nature's finest fruit.

I believe in the repeated facts.

29 posted on 07/08/2003 11:43:08 PM PDT by SevenDaysInMay (Federal judges and justices serve for periods of good behavior, not life. Article III sec. 1)
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To: PeaceBeWithYou
Here's the raw data. Don't know how accurate it is, or whether some of the CO2 escaped before the ice solidified after snowfall.

******************************************************************************* *** Historical CO2 Record from the Vostok Ice Core *** *** *** *** Source: J.M. Barnola *** *** D. Raynaud *** *** C. Lorius *** *** Laboratoire de Glaciologie et de Geophysique de l'Environnement *** *** 38402 Saint Martin d'Heres Cedex, France *** *** *** *** N. I. Barkov *** *** Arctic and Antarctic Research Institute *** *** Beringa Street 38 *** *** St. Petersburg 199226, Russia *** *** *** *** January 2003 *** ******************************************************************************* Mean Age of age of CO2 Depth the ice the air concentration (m) (yr BP) (yr BP) (ppmv) 149.1 5679 2342 284.7 173.1 6828 3634 272.8 177.4 7043 3833 268.1 228.6 9523 6220 262.2 250.3 10579 7327 254.6 266 11334 8113 259.6 302.6 13449 10123 261.6 321.2 14538 11013 263.7 331.6 15208 11326 244.8 342.1 15922 11719 238.3 365.5 17747 13405 236.2 375.6 18580 13989 225.3 443.5 24315 17695 182.2 470.8 26578 19988 189.2 506.4 29630 22977 191.6 544.7 32844 26303 188.5 554.2 33645 27062 191.7 602.3 37421 31447 205.4 625.6 39310 33884 209.1 700.2 45242 39880 209.1 765 50610 44766 189.3 788.2 52446 47024 188.4 800 53436 48229 210.1 812.2 54474 49414 215.7 834.8 56300 51174 190.4 902.2 61783 57068 221.8 912 62689 57799 210.4 986.2 69618 63687 195.4 1011.3 71767 65701 191.4 1023.5 72797 66883 195 1087.2 78042 72849 227.4 1112.5 80057 75360 229.2 1162.1 83615 78995 217.1 1175 84515 80059 221.8 1209.9 86840 82858 231 1237.2 88808 84929 241.1 1251.5 89864 85727 236.4 1261.2 90609 86323 228.1 1274.2 91560 87180 214.2 1289.2 92632 88051 217 1309.2 94039 89363 208 1338.2 96047 91691 224.3 1349 96791 92460 228.4 1387.2 99498 95349 232.1 1451.5 103733 99842 225.9 1463.2 104566 100833 230.9 1476.1 105492 101829 236.9 1505 107599 103372 228.2 1526.3 109404 105213 236.9 1542.1 110674 106203 230.7 1575.2 113363 108308 238.2 1582.8 113952 108994 245.7 1598 115077 110253 251.3 1615 116228 111456 256.8 1627.9 117072 112577 266.3 1637.6 117671 113472 261.4 1644 118074 114082 274.6 1651 118499 114738 273.3 1669.2 119601 116175 262.5 1687.2 120680 117519 267.6 1700.9 121485 118396 273.8 1716 122345 119273 272 1726.8 122965 120002 265.2 1736.8 123535 120652 277.7 1758.2 124721 121961 272.2 1770 125380 122606 276.5 1789.2 126447 123815 268.7 1790 126491 123858 266.6 1799 126955 124306 266.3 1804 127210 124571 279.8 1807 127360 124723 273 1810 127510 124876 277.2 1825.7 128293 125746 273.8 1830 128501 126023 267.1 1836 128804 126475 262.5 1841.6 129097 126809 262.6 1852.4 129674 127445 275.4 1859 130026 127808 275.6 1869.3 130599 128300 274.1 1870.2 130653 128399 287.1 1875.9 130998 128652 286.8 1882.5 131406 129007 282.7 1890 131908 129411 264.1 1895 132264 129755 263.4 1902 132763 130106 257.9 1903.5 132873 130167 259 1919 134091 130992 264.6 1930 135107 131661 245 1932 135308 131789 240.4 1936 135702 132067 228.9 1947 136819 132818 223.5 1954.5 137601 133334 224 1955 137651 133366 220.3 1960 138193 133636 210.6 1969.8 139285 134205 208.9 1972 139530 134362 203.7 1980.2 140452 135003 204.6 1982 140655 135172 200.4 1983 140766 135271 198 1987.4 141257 135683 198.1 1990.6 141615 135976 201.8 1992 141773 136099 200.7 1994.6 142064 136359 202.5 1998 142440 136659 195.9 1999 142551 136743 201.1 2005.8 143315 137383 194.4 2009.5 143732 137694 193.4 2013 144126 137986 194.2 2015 144346 138226 190.2 2025.7 145527 139445 192.3 2029 145905 139851 196.5 2041 147236 141256 195.6 2041.5 147292 141312 196.5 2050.3 148287 142357 190.4 2077.5 151234 145435 197 2107.05 154557 149157 203 2116 155625 150303 191.9 2117 155743 150423 188.9 2131.1 157456 151854 200.6 2157 160293 154471 189 2164 161077 155299 185.5 2167.2 161451 155707 187.5 2203 165646 160494 204.4 2207.3 166193 161037 196.5 2225 168391 162996 191.6 2231.1 169094 163522 190.1 2240.1 170119 164341 186.7 2247 170922 165278 183.8 2254.1 171766 166299 196.5 2280 174920 169870 197.9 2302 177644 172596 197.8 2316.1 179474 174617 196 2325 180546 175440 190.3 2331.1 181265 176030 189.4 2333 181502 176271 190.1 2348 183525 178550 207.7 2363 185640 180779 213.2 2372 186927 181617 217.7 2379.2 187934 182447 198.1 2386 188892 183355 199.8 2399 190587 185063 203.5 2414 192382 187199 210.7 2425 193816 189335 231.4 2437 195298 191057 231.5 2442.1 195947 191592 220.3 2451 197086 192632 218 2470.3 199372 195123 226.5 2475 199904 195625 220.1 2488.1 201324 197567 226.4 2494.1 201968 198442 241.2 2499 202496 199025 242.6 2525 205458 202212 251 2533 206496 203191 239.1 2543 207803 204283 247.7 2552.01 208947 205148 244.4 2554.9 209307 205435 231.9 2557.71 209648 205715 232.2 2560.91 210053 206119 228.7 2564.9 210525 206672 226.3 2567.5 210837 207029 229.4 2570.4 211175 207412 231.4 2574.21 211628 207991 238.2 2575.5 211781 208177 237.2 2579.9 212295 208794 230 2581.9 212528 209073 240.5 2584.71 212846 209414 242.2 2588.81 213315 210022 244.6 2590.4 213500 210232 243.9 2595.11 214036 210830 247.3 2596.71 214219 211005 252 2600.4 214639 211476 246.9 2603.7 215012 211929 239.5 2606.61 215343 212281 257.4 2612.5 216014 213005 243.4 2621.71 217099 214153 251.2 2629.41 217989 215041 241.4 2634.41 218602 215593 240.3 2636.71 218908 215879 242.7 2640.41 219393 216459 247.5 2644.41 219935 217009 251.7 2646.61 220255 217271 251.2 2649.4 220680 217574 245.3 2650.41 220822 217676 245.4 2656.21 221718 218342 240.5 2666.7 223548 219679 214.1 2666.71 223548 219680 212.2 2669.4 224102 220042 216.1 2670.41 224240 220182 216.2 2674.6 224993 220758 203.7 2674.61 224993 220760 207.2 2677.41 225469 221054 208.9 2682.61 226339 221612 205.7 2691.01 227885 222958 203.4 2693.61 228349 223446 215.7 2698.01 229167 224630 236.9 2701.41 229802 225299 234.5 2702.71 230039 225509 233.1 2705.61 230547 225888 224.5 2711.71 231601 226710 232.4 2715.41 232206 227384 233.9 2717.71 232571 227840 241.7 2732.71 234795 230703 245.2 2735.71 235232 231382 252.1 2738.71 235652 231990 241.4 2741.71 236077 232570 247.4 2744.61 236467 233102 243.1 2747.61 236866 233646 239.2 2751.11 237301 234126 245.7 2753.61 237602 234470 245.9 2756.21 237889 234781 247.4 2759.11 238206 235213 252.9 2765.21 238908 236236 259.8 2768.2 239273 236851 263.2 2773.51 240006 237831 279 2776.5 240467 238199 280.3 2782.71 241535 238935 263.8 2785.51 242092 239250 252.4 2788.51 242675 239545 249.9 2791.5 243237 239866 236.7 2794.51 243813 240201 230.4 2797.51 244446 240577 219.4 2806.51 246379 242068 214.7 2815.61 248364 243653 200.2 2818.61 249046 244215 213.9 2821.51 249670 244863 195.4 2824.51 250309 245483 196.7 2827.5 250920 246090 195.4 2833.81 252279 247447 199 2836.51 252879 248087 201.9 2839.51 253559 248980 204 2845.51 254873 250461 203.9 2851.51 256182 251521 209.7 2854.4 256858 252174 205.7 2857.51 257604 252959 208.9 2860.51 258351 253880 214.7 2866.51 259882 255233 228.2 2870.51 260936 256053 199.9 2872.71 261526 256501 211.7 2876.21 262455 257247 188.7 2878.5 263067 257792 187.2 2881.42 263844 258477 194.2 2884.51 264666 259228 198.9 2887.51 265457 259958 184.7 2890.51 266255 260754 190.4 2893.51 267039 261595 193.9 2896.51 267825 262411 194.2 2899.51 268558 263207 198.4 2902.51 269307 264046 193.2 2905.51 270052 264834 202.2 2908.5 270770 265703 204.5 2911.46 271454 266492 211 2914.51 272171 267434 215.4 2919.41 273256 268679 223.7 2926.51 274802 270680 231.4 2932.5 276091 272275 228 2935.51 276731 273012 226.4 2939.3 277526 273910 231.4 2941.51 278017 274445 230.4 2944.51 278711 275218 231 2953.5 280944 277298 234.9 2956.51 281740 277925 220.4 2959.51 282539 278602 217.2 2964.51 283810 279543 207.7 2967.5 284656 280361 206 2970.5 285549 281200 206.7 2973.81 286475 282301 212.7 2979.51 288013 283492 213.2 2986 289826 285301 217.1 2988.61 290554 286217 224.4 2991.5 291328 287102 231 2994.51 292121 287846 236.2 2997.5 292855 288492 239 3000.4 293610 289433 236 3003.51 294495 290571 240.2 3007.01 295477 291769 240.7 3009.51 296158 292474 250.2 3012.5 296982 293002 248.6 3015.51 297810 293676 244.9 3018.51 298623 294615 225.9 3022.71 299716 295849 227.9 3024.9 300267 296380 226.2 3027.51 300928 297131 233.2 3030.41 301665 298051 237.9 3033.51 302452 299020 239 3036.51 303201 299877 241.9 3039.51 303939 300646 251.7 3042.51 304745 301496 256.8 3045.51 305612 302456 257.2 3048.56 306561 303334 246.9 3051.51 307464 303953 272.7 3054.51 308358 304590 251.7 3057.7 309281 305304 245.2 3057.71 309281 305306 244.7 3063.51 310905 307131 255.9 3066.51 311704 308101 249.2 3072.5 313292 310035 257.2 3072.51 313292 310039 256.3 3075.41 314032 310930 260.4 3078.51 314822 311774 260.3 3081.6 315592 312669 260.6 3084.51 316304 313493 266.3 3087.8 317108 314374 264 3090.51 317775 315143 266.2 3093.51 318509 315940 270.2 3096.46 319231 316681 271.9 3099.51 319978 317445 275.2 3105.51 321448 318980 265 3109.01 322216 319754 271.8 3111.51 322746 320378 272.7 3114.81 323441 321386 273.2 3117.51 324021 322111 282.4 3119.51 324461 322582 289.2 3120.61 324711 322827 288.4 3123.51 325400 323485 298.7 3126.51 326200 324189 278.2 3129.91 327237 324991 285.8 3132.41 328058 325527 278.7 3135.51 329135 326239 270.5 3138.51 330278 327114 255.7 3141.51 331513 328097 241.9 3145.01 333111 329267 239.7 3147.51 334356 330208 234.2 3153.51 337304 332293 250.2 3156.51 338770 333627 200.7 3159.51 340242 335290 205.2 3162.81 341849 336972 204.9 3165.5 343123 338282 211.9 3169.01 344844 340165 220.4 3174.51 347589 342998 221.2 3177.81 349298 344735 216.2 3180.5 350773 346105 209.5 3183.41 352377 347610 209.2 3189.51 355795 350765 193 3192.51 357450 352412 186.2 3195.81 359223 354372 185.8 3200.01 361445 356838 201.2 3204.71 363962 359688 206.4 3210.51 367048 362766 201.9 3213.7 368693 364499 200 3216.45 370095 366221 214.7 3219.5 371843 368117 224.6 3222.51 373629 369563 229.7 3228.91 377177 373014 227 3231.51 378469 374561 240 3234.5 380153 376758 239.1 3237.51 381834 378194 246.9 3240.51 383395 379633 245.9 3246.41 386788 383504 258.1 3249.51 388757 384909 264.7 3252.45 390641 386579 259.3 3258.51 394634 390589 255.2 3261.51 396423 392451 250.2 3264.51 398091 394628 266.3 3267.51 399733 396713 274.7 3270.6 401423 398554 277.1 3273.81 403173 400390 278 3283.51 408236 405844 279.7 3289.45 411202 409022 281.2 3289.45 411202 409022 283.7 3292.91 413010 410831 276.3 3299.01 416332 414085 285.5 3301.4 417638 415434 286.9 3304.4 419328 417160 277.6
30 posted on 07/08/2003 11:56:11 PM PDT by graycamel
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To: graycamel
sorry the post was fouled up. I didn't know it wouldn't automatically format. Click here: ftp://cdiac.ornl.gov/pub/trends/co2/vostok.icecore.co2
31 posted on 07/08/2003 11:57:33 PM PDT by graycamel
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To: RadioAstronomer
They attributed most of these higher-frequency cycles to cyclical solar and lunar phenomena, concluding that the summer monsoon over eastern China, which brings the region much of its precipitation, may thus "be related to solar irradiance."

Ping!

32 posted on 07/09/2003 12:09:42 AM PDT by Aracelis
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To: farmfriend
bTTT!!!!!!!
33 posted on 07/09/2003 3:17:38 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: FreeTheHostages
I'm still amazed how you opened a scientific discussion, with the phrase '"Um, Hello" followed it with a blatantly false statement. Then pissed and moaned that you didn't have to argue with those who would not take you seriously.

Your evidence has been proven false though you keep parroting the same record like some one hit wonder from the “70’s”, you never recognized or apologized for your own condescending attitude but did criticize it in others and you continue to parrot the same study even though it has been proven worthless.

Are the walls in your room padded? You do appear to be one of those limp ineffective individuals who needs to be protected from himself. Have you considered the Head & Shoulders you desperately shampoo with every day does nothing to stop the grey matter from falling out your cranial ports?

You’re not a mind of intellect, you are a target, brainwashed or brain dead you’re one of those shining ineffectuals that makes the sport of ridicule and humiliation too easy to be fun..

Start working on freeing yourself and stop trying to enslave others in your ignorance.

34 posted on 07/09/2003 4:28:44 AM PDT by Fearless Flyers (Proud to be of The Brave and the Free)
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To: PeaceBeWithYou
*Thanks* for posting this article on Vostok. First of all, the article concedes a correlation between CO2 and atmosphere warming -- it just contends that CO2 lags and thus is not the driver.

Second, I am not persuaded by the inferential logic near the end of the article, where the website author writes:

"[T]hey and many others continue to hold to the view that the subsequent increase in atmospheric CO2 -- which is believed to be due to warming-induced CO2 outgassing from the world's oceans -- serves to amplify the warming that is caused by whatever prompts the temperature to rise in the first place. This belief, however, is founded on unproven assumptions about the strength of CO2-induced warming and is applied without any regard for biologically-induced negative climate feedbacks that may occur in response to atmospheric CO2 enrichment."

My response is: you've posted an article conceding there is 450,000 years of correlated data, you don't even dispute the correlation, and your concern is about the *strength* of CO2-induced warming? I SHARE that concern: I have NEVER said that the predictive models are accurate and that chicken little is right and we'll all die because of manmade global warming! I say: it's happening and let's not pretend Vostok and other ice samples don't say that it is. They do. BTW, this article does not talk about the objective measurements -- how the CO2 is at 380ppm and how that's just happened in the very present, on a steep slope rise since 1850.
35 posted on 07/09/2003 6:28:13 AM PDT by FreeTheHostages
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To: Carry_Okie
No, I don't "got it." I've something to say regarding Fred Singer which I simply won't, because we'll all descend into mud-throwing. But I know die-hard Republican scientists re-engineered to work on NASA's Mission to Planet Earth -- and I thus have the fortune to know people who are both conservative and scientists who work in this area. I know what they say about Singer.
36 posted on 07/09/2003 6:33:15 AM PDT by FreeTheHostages
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To: SevenDaysInMay
And we're fussing about a change of a few dozen ppm of a CO2 molecule with a trace specific heat compared to H2O

I think a lot of people think I'm taking Al Gore's position. Let me repeat -- I'm not fussing about a "few dozen ppm" -- although I'd quibble about what a "few dozen" means in this context. In percentage terms it's significant: "380 ppm" as opposed to a previous historical high of "280 ppm" for the last half million years. (I think people that posted charts about what happened a billion years ago are silly -- we're talking about the modern environment, sustaining our life form, surely. Who cares if it was over 380mm 2 billion years ago?!)

I'm not saying we should fuss. We should as conservatives note that the "solution" to the problem -- I will call it that -- is to watch and monitor but not take any precipitous action, because no one but no one knows that it's going to lead to harm -- it may even lead to good. (Like the Christian Science Monitor article on increased vegetation . . . .) I'm just saying let's not deny these measurements and their significance. The question of whether there's manmade global warming is a science question. I think it's been answered. The question on its magnitude/impact/etc. science cannot now accurately speak to, and so it becomes a political question which conservatives should weigh in on. I bet we'd both be inclined to do the same do-nothing approach, saying free-market solutions can step in to solve the problem if it becomes a real, impactful "problem." I wish conservatives would take up this important conservative barricade, and stop thinking that they have to deny science in order to not sign Kyoto.
37 posted on 07/09/2003 6:41:26 AM PDT by FreeTheHostages
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To: Fearless Flyers
Are the walls in your room padded? You do appear to be one of those limp ineffective individuals who needs to be protected from himself. Have you considered the Head & Shoulders you desperately shampoo with every day does nothing to stop the grey matter from falling out your cranial ports?

You’re not a mind of intellect, you are a target, brainwashed or brain dead you’re one of those shining ineffectuals that makes the sport of ridicule and humiliation too easy to be fun.

Start working on freeing yourself and stop trying to enslave others in your ignorance.

Um, hello.
38 posted on 07/09/2003 6:43:05 AM PDT by FreeTheHostages
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To: FreeTheHostages
*Thanks* for posting this article on Vostok. First of all, the article concedes a correlation between CO2 and atmosphere warming -- it just contends that CO2 lags and thus is not the driver.

... you've posted an article conceding there is 450,000 years of correlated data, you don't even dispute the correlation, and your concern is about the *strength* of CO2-induced warming?

The correlation indicates (but doesn't prove) that colder temperatures cause CO2 levels to drop and warmer temperatures cause CO2 levels to rise. That makes temperature the driver. (if you accept that a correlation is proof of causation)

But the opposite conclusion, that CO2 levels drive temperature changes, is impossible. Cause always precedes effect.

A reasonable theory can easily be constructed to account for temp. changes causing CO2 level changes. The planet cools and plant/animal activity decreases leading to lower CO2 levels. The planet warms stimulating plant/animal activity and CO2 levels rise. The long lag between temp. change and CO2 level change reflects the slow and measured response of dense concentrations of biomass (jungles/forests) to temperature changes. The CO2 levels are driven by biomass levels which are driven by climatic changes.
First cause, then effect.

39 posted on 07/09/2003 7:04:43 AM PDT by TigersEye (Joe McCarthy was right ... so was PT Barnum!)
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To: TigersEye
oh, I'm sorry, I see your point

OK, that's not terribly helpful to my position then

but those previous cycles don't involve 100 percent increases in CO2 in parts per million in an Antartica ice core? they don't involve the *kinds* of increases we see now

I am waiting for a response from lepton, who has told me there's science that (1) recognizes that there's been 1 degree heating but (2) notes that most of it occurred in the *first* half of the century, where as the increases in CO2 in Vostok are generally happen in the *second* half of the last century. that's interesting cause/effect data
40 posted on 07/09/2003 7:13:40 AM PDT by FreeTheHostages
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