Skip to comments.New York fast food workers strike over low wages [want $15/hr]
Posted on 12/01/2012 7:15:07 PM PST by DeaconBenjamin
click here to read article
Kind of the problem of the future coming to a city near you..
Whether its union non-union 5, 10, 15, 20 or whatever the wage is what you get where you work...
The employees want the least the employee want the most..the government want everybody to just get along..
Its not capitalism, its not socialism or communism pushed by the political enemy, the problem as I see it is simply a loss of the concept of being an American.
You are proud to be an American or you are not..I'm sick of folks who claim their particular political persuasion is correct, and feel free to run down this great country irregardless of party.
I cant stomach the posts of so called conservatives cheering every factory closing and their elation at fellow Americans losing their jobs.
I'm far Right, and have left the GOP years ago. I fought for this country and I'll be dammed if I'm going to succeed, or put any party or region of this country over the basic fact that I am an American.
The idea of being a conservative first and an America second is bullshit ....
I don’t know... ;^)
“If I really need help, I can call two guys I used to work for. They are expensive, but are highly skilled. I cant afford to teach someone. I hang cabinets, frame,build decks,and do crown moulding by myself.”
I did a little bit of framing but not enough to call myself a framer.
When I took side work I had a friend of mine who was a top drawer installer help me...I paid him the $15 an hour he asked for and bought his lunch.
McDonalds doesn't own the restaurants, franchisees do. These are people who plunked down close to a million in cash to play the Mickey D game. If a store gets closed down, it's those entrepreneurs who will lose.
Is that what you think of all blacks who work at McDonalds?
every time strikers or whatever shutters a factory, it is the left that cheers.
They cheered Hostess shutting down
Yet I somehow dont think that principle really applies to Micky Ds counterhelp.
Most of them are franchises and are not big businesses.
“Why are you sympathizing with these enemies of our Republic? “
Because I think wage busting is as big an enemy as unions. There wouldn’t be unions had they not become necassary. To a large degree they’ve outlived their usefullness.
Any CEO will tell you straight out that their only goal is to make money, if that means outsourcing then they outsource, if it means paying substandard wages and they can get away with it then they do that as well.
I heard the outsource argument that said companies moved overseas because unions broke them, but if it were just about pay and bennies why not just move to a right to work state.
The middle class is largely gone and that’s not going to come back if the policy is that large Corps can pay whatever they feel like paying the workers.
It may seem radical to you but I believe that somebody working a fulltime job is justified in having a reasonable expectation that they can feed, clothe, and house themselves.
Not in grand style, but where they don’t still need assistance.
BTW I thought a lot of posts on this thread were more than anti union, they were anti working people.
Go forward with that message and see how many people it converts to any conservative cause.
Bob, have you ever signed the front of a paycheck? Ever written the checks to cover the overhead costs of running a business? Ever sat at your kitchen table with your wife on a Sunday, going over your family's business accounting, trying to figure out how keep your prices competitive, while squeezing every last penny you could into the payroll budget to keep the good and loyal employees from seeking greener pastures - all while making sure there was enough to pay all your suppliers, creditors, and your advertising bill?
Not to mention that fact that you and your wife ought to see a paycheck somewhere in that mix. Have you ever done that, Bob?
I have. More times than I can tell you.
The fact is, there is only so much pie to go around in any business. McDonalds restaurants may do lots of business, but there's only so much any one store can carve off for payroll. Just like there's only so much they can charge for a Big Mac. At the end of the day, you can only pay your employees what the market will support.
If your customers would be happy with a 100% increase in the cost of your goods and services, then you'll have no trouble doubling your employee's wages. If not, then it's not something that's within your ability to make happen.
Brother, you and I are living the same nightmare. I’ve been dealing with everything you mentioned in your post for well over a decade now.
Sometimes I think you won’t be able to find a native born American in the trades in another ten years.
“Most of them are franchises and are not big businesses. “
They still have to pay the employees. I have to figure that if they got the money
together for the franchise they submitted a business plan and if that planned was only profitable by paying the lowest possible wages...they should go back to hiring HS kids.
If the employees are coming from some other labor pool besides HS kids working for extra money then the costs of labor are almost certainly going to go up.
I believe that somebody working a fulltime job is justified in having a reasonable expectation that they can feed, clothe, and house themselves
lol. Now they will work 29 hours a week and the taxpayers will be feeding, clothing and housing themselves.
if they are union or leftists maybe
but mostly it is an “a ha!” Obamaland strikes again!
“Not to mention that fact that you and your wife ought to see a paycheck somewhere in that mix. Have you ever done that, Bob?
I have. More times than I can tell you.
The fact is, there is only so much pie to go around in any business. McDonalds restaurants may do lots of business, but there’s only so much any one store can carve off for payroll. Just like there’s only so much they can charge for a Big Mac. At the end of the day, you can only pay your employees what the market will support.”
Yes I have.
If the company can’t pay wages that even keep their employees just a bit below the poverty line, then by the free market principle, shouldn’t they close the doors.
Also we’re not talking about a family run small business like the one you described. We’re talking about a national chain. Someone pointed out that the stores are franchises but they still have a lot of heft from being part of a national chain.
If the only way they can stay open is by paying substandard wages, or hiring illegals, then hasn’t the free market spoken?
“and there should also be a reasonable expectation that a company can fire bad workers too.”
Absolutely a bad employee should be fired.
This is the same forum that regularly bashes welfare recipients and yet heres a group of people working an honest job for a Corp that is worth who knows how much and its somehow offensive that the workers try to get more money.
I hate to say it but the attitude of some of the conservatives here toward struggling workers may be why were losing everywhere.
My posts on this thread and other restaurant threads are not "anti worker," but I believe merely pro-reality.
The fast food business model formed in the 1930s-1950s from two changes in society, the increasingly mobile public, and an increasing middle class. Previous to the 1940s, restaurants were for the upper class. Workers too their lunches to the factory in buckets, and later lunch pails. The McDonald's fanchise business model brought consistency and cheap warm food to the middle class, but it does so by controlling costs.
Today we have 2.7 million workers in the fast food industry, which runs on thin margins. And now the government thinks it can do better to run the industry. It has mandated health care, it is raising taxes on small business, which is what these are, it wants to raise taxes on "millionaires" making 250k, which is what they are, it has raised regulatory requirements for signs, and now the workers are being encouraged to form unions and strike for whatever is left.
The fast food business model can't support all of those new requirements. It hires low cost employees for a reason, because it operates on a thin margin. Raise the costs, and they have to raise the prices. If they raise the prices, people will substitute, because they can do so easily. It is already cheaper to bring a lunch in a lunch pail from home, it is just a convenience to go to Taco Bell. But if Taco Bell keeps raising their prices, more and more people will decide it is not worth the convenience and will substitute. The government can force costs to rise, but it can't force customers to go there.
The only thing fast food restaurants can do to survive is to fight these added costs as best they can. They will hire only part time workers. They will automate as much as possible, and get as lean as possible. Jobs will be lost, jobs that business owners were willing to pay for before all these regulations.
What no one on the "worker" side seems to understand is that the fast food business model is not a pre ordained, must have business model. Regulations can kill the entire industry. I believe these regulations are more "anti worker" than the business owners, or any of these posts.
Get a good ladder...It worked wonders for me...
I guess if they can’t afford the arbitrary regulations imposed by the behemoth in DC, the “free market” has spoken?
We could see every retail level establishment in the country put all their employees on part time schedules because of Obamacare and other needless regulations.... but you think they should all shut down because the “free market has spoken”??
If Obama imposes a 100% tax on business and businesses shut down, its the “free market” that has spoken?
If workers walk off the job and you aren’t allowed to replace them, is that somehow the “free market” too?
Here is the test. If these $8 an hour workers refuse to work, let us see if this business can replace them. If it can with people who are willing to work, then the “free market has spoken”.
Seriously? The franchises PAY THE CHAIN, not the other way around.
Burger workers want $15/hr? Let them move to North Dakota. They pay more than that and can’t find people because the oil fields scooped all the burger crowds up from there.
They need to automate and just have one guy back there and some machines doing most of the work.
Then they can pay $15 an hour, to that guy
“Seriously? The franchises PAY THE CHAIN, not the other way around.”
Right. Who pays for the advertising. Would a Mom & Pop burger stand have as good a chance of success as Micky Ds?
“I guess if they cant afford the arbitrary regulations imposed by the behemoth in DC, the free market has spoken?”
I’m sorry I thought we were talking about a specific group of workers. Namely some MickyDs employees in NYC who were trying to get a pay bump from the $8.50 an hour they’re making now.
No other arbitrary regulations were mentioned. I said that if the company couldn’t afford to pay their workers and still stay open then the free market principle had spoken.
They can raise their prices or they can close but labor is a legitimate business expense.
Maybe they can save money on their deliveries by telling whoever they get their fuel from that they can only pay 2 dollars a gallon for fuel.
You forgt to mention they might need to live in a tent for a while. :p
Bob, I read through your posts on the thread, and nowhere did you relate your personal experiences as a business owner. You say you paid a competent professional to do some work for you once, but that's very different from owning and running a real business for an extended length of time.
Frankly, your posts throughout this thread read exactly like someone who's always been (and still is) a wage earner, not an entrepreneur.
If the company cant pay wages that even keep their employees just a bit below the poverty line, then by the free market principle, shouldnt they close the doors.
Whose free market principles are those? Karl Marx'? SEIU's? Obama's?
The free market is just that -- free. It's trade conducted between willing sellers, and willing buyers. If I have a shop that sells cheap hamburgers to customers of modest means, then there's only so much I can afford to pay someone to flip patties for me. There's just not that much profit margin built into the sales price of the product.
Just as I offer the public a decent sandwich for a cheap price, I offer a low paying burger flipping job to anyone who's willing to do that menial job for the pay. Not everyone will take it, but there are some who (for whatever personal reasons) will.
Not everyone will buy my burgers, either. Some folks want a better meal, and are willing to pay more to get it. It's a free market, and they've got choices. So do people looking for employment. Not everyone's going to be willing to flip burgers for me for what I can afford to pay, but that's alright. It's a free market. They're free to try and sell their labor to someone who can afford to pay more. Like the more expensive restaurant up the road.
There isn't any rule in free market capitalism that says you MUST provide a 'living wage' to everyone who works for you. Some jobs simply don't have that level of real world exchange value. Sorry, but that's just elementary economics at work.
The expectation that any job in the economy should pay a so-called 'living wage' is a total arbitrary invented by leftists. Everything has a value, including labor. Some types of labor is more valuable than others. Some has hardly any value at all. In a truly free market, there will always be someone who's willing to trade with you, if the perceived value of labor to dollars is equitable.
They make a couple pennies on the dollar, a very slim profit margin.
If these workers think they can make $15 an hour, they are free to start their own fast food place and pay themselves whatever they like.
If the price goes up, I’ll just cook my own burgers at home.
“Bob, I read through your posts on the thread, and nowhere did you relate your personal experiences as a business owner. You say you paid a competent professional to do some work for you once, but that’s very different from owning and running a real business for an extended length of time.
Frankly, your posts throughout this thread read exactly like someone who’s always been (and still is) a wage earner, not an entrepreneur.”
I owned a cabinet and woodworking shop for about 5 years.
had as many as 12 employees, not counting independent installation contractors.
Owned a small paint business that was really just to help me sell cabinet jobs.
And now you're working for $15 an hour? Why aren't you in business anymore?
“And now you’re working for $15 an hour? Why aren’t you in business anymore?”
I don’t believe I said what I’m making now.
I closed the shop when the building started to fall off.
I kept the benchtop machines and sometimes will build a few cabinets if it’s for somebody I know.
I sold the rest of the stuff. I was getting payments for the bigger machines for a couple of years since I owned them all outright.
and they are paying their workers
if they can’t afford to have these workers quit because new ones with their high level of irreplaceable skills won’t work for what they pay then, yes, pay would have to go up and they might employ one less worker too.
have you ever seen the TV show “Worst Jobs in Hostory”??
I need to hire a Chinese kid to type for me at $1 an hour...
I’d rather not, it would be nice to purchase a hamburger for 5 dollars.
“if they cant afford to have these workers quit because new ones with their high level of irreplaceable skills wont work for what they pay then, yes, pay would have to go up and they might employ one less worker too.”
I wonder which would work best. If they cut a worker and raised the current pay. Maybe not to $15 but say $12 and that worked as a solution or would it be better to stand on $8.50 and have the workers unionize.
I also wonder if the stores will stay open if the workers do unionize.
If they raised the pay and eliminated a position, I expect them to burn the place down anyways. :|
“If they raised the pay and eliminated a position, I expect them to burn the place down anyways. :|”
Lol. Well my question was really, is it better to raise the pay or have them unionize.
And if they unionize will the NYC MickyDs stay open.
Fast food jobs are meant for school kids...its an entry level job for kids....democrats are the one’s that put in motion such jobs are for the family man or woman....idiots aren’t worth even minimum wage at times...
For highly repetitive 24/7 jobs, the break even point for a robot is close to $20 per hour.
For robots, that price will come down, and they will get more productive each year.
For humans, their price will go up, and their productivity will slightly improve each year.
Good luck to those with limited blue collar skills.
The next ten years will be seriously painful, not just in America and Europe, but everywhere.
” However, many branches are operated on a franchise basis, and owners fear their profitability would be hit if they are forced to pay higher wages than a nearby outlet.”
Really? Higher expenses mean lower profits? How can this be? Is this really a surprise to anyone? Do the union rank and file not understand their striking for higher wages will affect the company they are striking against? Does the word TWINKIE help?
The unions will continue to get black eyes as they strike against employers during a ressession. Even low union wages look good compared to unemployment checks!
everyone who wants to pay $15 for a Big Mac so the illiterate punching pictures at the register can support illegitimate children- please raise your hand
or to be fair, perhaps that register puncher is a permanently underemployed liberal arts grad obama voter with $100K in student loans. So add in $5 fries and a $5 drink
the illiterates realize union dues will take mo’ money out of their paychecks, right? The cruelest tax of all
Sorry. I must have mixed someone else's posts in with yours.
I closed the shop when the building started to fall off.
I can't speak to your personal business circumstances, but nearly every successful business owner has weathered repeated economic storms in the life of their business.
In my own, I've seen it go from a cockamamie idea in my head, to a thriving concern that produced excellent products and great jobs, to just me and a couple of helpers, down to just me and my truck, then slowly climbing back to the brink of real success again.
If you made it for five years, I've just got to believe that you could still make it. Businesses that make it to the five year mark, are pretty solid. It takes some exceptional adversity in the marketplace to kill a business that's made it that far. The only other thing that can kill it, is if the owner simply decides to pull the plug.
I know all about the construction market falling off. I think everyone in the trades does. What I found in my own business, was that the market for high end sheet metal work was being slowly taken over by the modular, assembly line sort of products. When I came into the business fifteen years ago, the high end only accounted for maybe 15% of the market anyway, but that was plenty for us to maintain a strong and healthy business. Nowadays, that's probably down to about 5%, and in the Dallas area (where we moved seven years ago), it's even less.
We suffered horribly because of being edged out like that, and the proliferation of illegal labor didn't help either. It pushed the wages and the product quality down across my industry.
My wife and I bailed and went into a completely different business for about three years, but closed that when the products themselves didn't perform to our standards. We went back to doing what we've always done, but had to re-learn the market and a new business model. Now that we've got it, we're about to give our competitors hell.
Anyhow, we're drifting off topic here. I just wanted to reply to the points in your last post.
As a former business owner, I'm sure you can appreciate the fact that what you pay your employees is based upon what your products can fetch in the marketplace. If it takes an employee one hour to produce $50 worth of salable goods or services, you can't possibly pay him $50 an hour. If you paid him $25 an hour, that would be 50% of the gross, which is unsustainable in any business I know of. $15 an hour (or about 30% of the gross) would be about tops for that employee, I would think.
Naturally, that employee's pay would increase if he could produce higher revenue per hour for the company. That's just the way the simple economics work.
No, I haven't. What's your point?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, if you don't belong to a Union already you cannot legally go on strike. If I owned one of these companies all of the people who walked out would be fired ASAP.
****And many here cheer another American losing their job..pure BS****
Yes that is pure BS. Many here see the destruction of socialist policies and shout it from the rooftops. That is not nearly the same as cheering our downfall.
” The only other thing that can kill it, is if the owner simply decides to pull the plug.”
That’s pretty much what happened. I had lost interest in the work.
It seemed like as good a time as any to move on to something else.
I had a couple if $15 an hour employees. That’s about the top out for that kind of work. Those were the skill positions.
Everybody else made around $11 which was about a dollar or two above average but it was worth it not to roll the crew over so much.
I don’t know how much MickyDs food costs in NYC. I would guess that it costs a little more than other places just because everything there costs a bit more.
I don’t know how anybody makes it anywhere on $8.50 an hour, and certainly not in NYC.
I’ll ask you the same question I asked upthread in another post.
In your opinion would it be wiser for MickyDs to raise the pay or to have them unionize.
And if they unionize will the MickyDs stay open?
I've been reading your comments(snarkybob) and you are an idiot. I don't believe you ever ran a business, I think you are a left wing troll spouting left wing talking points. To answer your stupid question. If McDs doesn't raise pay there is no guarantee that the workers will Unionize, it takes a bit of effort to do so.
However, if they did Unionize and demanded higher wages I would bet McDs in NYC would shut down, if they can't afford to raise the pay to 15 an hour now, what makes you think they could afford it if the workers unionized?
Your question is totally idiotic and self answering which is why no one else answered you on it. I decided to because I became tired of reading it in every other comment. Anyone with a brain(especially someone who claims to have owned a business) would never have asked such a stupid question to begin with.