New York fast food workers strike over low wages [want $15/hr]

guardian.co.uk ^ | Thursday 29 November 2012 19.32 EST | Gizelle Lugo

[Windflier]

I didn’t say anything about anybody being owed a living wage.

I'm not going to wade back through the whole thread to find it now, but you definitely inferred that, even if you didn't directly state it as such. It's been one of your chief points throughout this conversation.

What I said is if the business can’t pay wages that workers are willing to work for and the workers have an option to unionize then they will.

Do you hear yourself? If a business can't afford to pay more for certain types of labor, then what good will it do for their workers to unionize (provided they can)?

If the fast food workers are unwilling to work for wages that the free market will support, then they need to upgrade their skills and seek work that does pay more. It's as simple as that.

No one's saying that these workers won't try to force McDonalds to pay them more, but they're going to run smack dab into the brick wall of reality, when they find that the net result of applying that force, is that fewer jobs are available in that company. They might even force the owners to close those stores and relocate to a saner market environment.

I've seen it happen before.

I lost one of the best jobs I ever had, because the Teamsters Union forced my company to relocate. They were already operating at barely sustainable margins, and the final push by the union was the last straw. Several hundred people lost their jobs at that one location, because of the greed of that union.

And we weren't the only ones. The Teamsters broke the backs of several other big freight haulers at the same time. Thousands lost their lifetime employment security in that one incident.

The McDonalds workers who are clamoring for more pay, need to realize that they do some of the most mindless, menial work in the economy, and that there simply isn't enough headroom in the pricing structure of their company's products to pay them more.

If these uneducated shlubs want to push it, and unionize all the fast food workers across the country, then there will be a lot less fast food restaurants, and a lot fewer of those kinds of jobs for entry level workers. In the end, who wins? Who loses?

Think about it.

[snarkybob]

“If these uneducated shlubs want to push it, and unionize all the fast food workers across the country, then there will be a lot less fast food restaurants, and a lot fewer of those kinds of jobs for entry level workers. In the end, who wins? Who loses?”

I’m still not being clear. I don’t personally care if the burger flippers unionize or not. I don’t eat there.

My point is ,if McDs doesn’t want to raise their pay, and they can unionize and get a pay bump. They’re within their rights to do that.
McDs can then close or do whatever option is best.

The workers are pushing the cost of labor up...period.

A friend of mine who had been working as an independent driver with his own truck just recently gave that up and started looking for a new way to make a living due to the cost of fuel.
The fuel company doesn’t owe him low cost fuel.
These workers don’y owe McDs low cost labor.

There seem to be several solutions. Raise their pay. Don’t raise their pay and hope they just go back to work.
Deal with a union if they organize one and either raise prices and pay them or close up shop.

You seem to be taking this personally.

[GeronL]

You keep leaving out “Replace the workers who won’t work for that pay with those that will”

That is definitely an option and should always be an option

[snarkybob]

“You keep leaving out “Replace the workers who won’t work for that pay with those that will”
That is definitely an option and should always be an option”

Of course that’s an option.

[eyedigress]

You said something like 3 options, raise pay, unionize, or close.

How about kick the workers out on their ass and put up a help-wanted sign.....

[snarkybob]

“You said something like 3 options, raise pay, unionize, or close.
How about kick the workers out on their ass and put up a help-wanted sign.....”

Also an option. At least until they unionize.

[GeronL]

Let them unionize and be unemployed union. Then hire non-union employees.

They are not owners of those jobs, they are not entitled.

[snarkybob]

“Let them unionize and be unemployed union. Then hire non-union employees.
They are not owners of those jobs, they are not entitled.”

You’re right, they’re not entitled.
The same McDs isn’t entitled to cheap labor.
Or the public to cheap burgers.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for your replies. I like thought out positions like yours, even if I disagree. In this case the disagreement is actually not very much.  I thought this was a nice reply in light of some of my comments.  I appreciated it.  When you first wrote this to me as private comments, I expressed by appreciation of you being willing to listen and agree/disagree.  I am happy to do so here as well.

I’m not a class warrior. I do know that everything can’t be equal or there’s no incentive to move forward.   I do believe tho that all labor has value. Even cleaning the muck from the gutters.  I believe so too, but I'm not a big fan of a government or union entity coming along and declaring what that value is.  I respect people for doing work.  If a job needs to be done, someone needs to do it.  I respect the person who does it.  You'll never see/hear me putting someone down for the job they're doing, unless that job is gaming the citizens of the United States for the attainment of evil goals.

I’m not sure how it happened, that’s probably why it happened, but my experience with wage distortion is based on the construction trade in Texas. When I left high school many of the boys in my peer group myself included, opted to skip college. We were all rural kids and most of us had been working some kind of blue collar labor job since we were old enough to work. Obviously some blue collar jobs weren't realistic. My senior year job was as a ranch hand and that didn’t pay enough to eat on a regular basis even back then.  Most of us that opted out of higher education got jobs as carpenters, dry-wallers, roofers, truck drivers....you get the gist. Fast forward 15 years, suddenly these guys notice they’re being pinched. Everything costs more and they’re still within a couple of dollars an hour of where they started.

I think there are a lot of us who dropped out into decent paying jobs.  Although my story is a little different than yours, your description comes close enough for us to be in the same group, folks who opted to work rather than continue our education.  And even though times have changed, I believe there is a vital need for jobs like this.  Not everyone is going to have the aptitude, financial stability, or drive to continue on with higher education.  If everyone did, that would be a problem too.  Not every job requires a four year college degree.  It's not necessary, and actually counter-productive for everyone to have one.

Imagine everyone walking around with $50,000 to $250,000 dollar in college loans to pay off, and there being nowhere near the volume of high paying jobs to place them all in.  That would be very unfortunate.

Then I started noticing that the construction crews were speaking less and less English. At first I didn’t worry about it, figuring that anybody could drive a nail or make big piles out of little piles. After a while though I started to realize that the trend for cheap labor had not only done away with what had been traditional entry level construction jobs, but the new workers were causing the pay for foremen and assistant foreman to stop getting bumped.  The new workers had none of the creative thought that you mentioned, they had zero curiosity about, or interest in their jobs other than to get a check on Friday. They were willing to work for just about half what the job had paid in previous years.

I have seen this.  The construction industry used to be a great place for citizens to go when they didn't want to continue on with schooling.  Yes, some positions required more schooling such as electricians, but many positions paid a decent salary that folks could earn a living to support a family on.  I have railed against the cheap labor in this area for a long time.

At about this same time I begin to notice that the materials used in construction jobs was getting crappier and crappier. I mean the cheapest junk that could be purchased.

I don't work in the trades, but I dabble enough in my own projects to know what you're addressing.  I agree.

I asked and was told that the cheap labor and materials were to keep the costs for construction projects low enough that they were affordable.  Funny thing, those projects kept right on climbing in costs and not just for houses but for things like roofs and floors and siding.

Once again, I agree.  I've seen it.  I watch some of the HDTV shows, and even on those I spot plenty of inferior products and short-cuts, that are often described as better, or simply more green.  In many instance they are clearly NOT better.  They are simply more politically correct.  Those homes will not last as long.  In short order they'll begin to have problems.  They're just inferior.  Old homes lasted decades.  I watch some of these projects and recognize issues that will materialize in the future, and not that distant a future either.

I wish I had some idea where it all goes from here, but IMHO the greed factor now outweighs the sense factor.  Some things have gotten cheaper, ChiCom junk from Walmart for example, but real goods and services haven’t stayed low cost.

I agree.  The problem is, new homeowners don't know what a complete bucket of bunk they're being sold.  The homes they are purchasing can't possibly withstand the test of time.  By the time the mortgage is paid off, they'll be left with a lot of problems.  I am referencing some of the newer construction.  Older homes that have been updated have some pretty good bones.  They'll remain okay.

The factory jobs seemed safe until the wave upon wave of outsourcing killed them as well.  And lets add, wave upon wave of immigrant labor...

The ripple effect has been catastrophic.  I agree that the U. S. Citizen worker, and there-by the U. S. Citizens at large have been gamed over the last twenty years, and it has gotten as still getting worse.

People work full time jobs to live on the margin. They fell into the easy credit trap. I know a lot of people who lived beyond their means via credit cards, but I also know a lot of people who were racking up CC debt just to stay fed and clothed.
God help you if you get sick or injured or miss a weeks work.  And don't forget the interest rates that are now around 30%, when in the old days someone would be prosecuted for trying to enforce these interest rates.

To get any kind of gainful employment you almost have to have a college degree that you then spend the next 15 years paying for. And even the college degree jobs aren’t paying at the top of the scale.  Yep.  That's right.  And as I was telling someone several days ago, I think we did this to ourselves to a certain degree.  We effectively doubled the work-force by having two wage earner families.  What did we expect that to do to wages?

Somethings going to have to give. Because the people downsized or under employed or under-payed aren’t going to evaporate when they hit bottom. They’re going to come asking for assistance.  I’ve seen it said on this forum that a good parasite doesn’t kill its host, this is usually said about people on welfare, but the parasites at the top have done a pretty good job of it as well.

Well, I think we have all contributed to what ails us to a certain extent.  I do agree that parasites have cropped up, but I'm reticent to call the current crop 'good' in any sense of the word.  Don't get me wrong, I don't consider someone with a hand out to be a parasite, until they decide to stay in that status by intent.

There’s a thread running now about what happened when the manufacturing sector was taken over by MBAs and displacing the designers, engineers, marketers and sellers who had traditionally run things.

Should be interesting, but I'll take a pass.  We've spent enough time on these subjects today.

Sorry this was so long winded. I had to take a break from FR and actually get a little something done.  No problem.  I appreciate the discussion.

Hope your Sunday is enjoyable.

At this point, I merely hope yours was enjoyable.  Take care.

A

[Windflier]

These workers don’y owe McDs low cost labor.

Right, and McDonalds doesn't owe them a job - low paying, high paying, or in between. They're paying these workers what the market will bear.

That's what you seem to be missing here. These folks don't have a right to a bigger slice of the pie in that company. They willingly chose to perform unskilled labor for a low wage. That wage can't be higher than it is, due to the cost of the products being produced, and the cost of all the other related overhead and expenses involved with running one of those stores.

If these folks want to make a higher wage, then they've got to confront the fact that they'll have to produce a tangible service that's of greater value to the buying public.

They can organize, go on strike, complain to the media, threaten their employers, pout and stomp their feet, but the fact remains, no one's cheating them out of anything and they're not being harmed in any way.

It's up to them to improve their lot in life, if that's their desire. Applying force to obtain greater material rewards, while not increasing their exchange with those who pay them, is nothing short of criminal. It's leftist think, and destructive to everyone concerned.

And now, I really do need to end off on this. There's really nothing more for me to say. If you still sympathize with these workers, that's your business. You're welcome to your viewpoint.

[eyedigress]

I’ll take it up.

Snarky, I started at .02 a bale 14 years old. I learned early in life to get smarter and work just as hard. I finally made it to minimum wage @ 3.15.

I am now at the 60-75k range because of hard work and paying attention. Do you not see that Bronco is killing this initiative?

[SamAdams76]

I used to work in fast food...like when I was 16 and living at home with my parents. It was a way for me to get experience in the working world and have some pocket money to buy sneakers and Led Zeppelin albums. Yes, that was back in the 1970s.

I'll never understand the mindset that one should be able to support a household by working an entry-level low skill job.

The typical McDonalds job of slinging fries or taking orders should only last a few months. After that, you should either be a shift supervisor or find some some other higher skilled job.

No knock against a career at McDonalds. Many have gone from flipping burgers to owning/operating a chain of restaurants and becoming millionaires in the process.

[TexasTransplant]

Trust me... for $15 an hour I could get “You want Fries with that” down pat

I’d work full time (do I still get the Obama Phone if I work?)

TT

[Cronos]

flipping burgers is not a specialized skill. I'm sorry workers, but you can easily be replaced by people who would want the job at the same rate

easily

[Cronos]

I was reading an article about wage comparison between Mexico and China in factory workers -- semi-skilled laborers in particular

in China, this went up from 0.3 dollars per hour to 1.51 from 2001 to 2011

People vote with their feet and employers have to raise salaries based on the market (supply and demand)

[rwfromkansas]

Midland.