I Dare

This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.

All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.

That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.

I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.

And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.

While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE

I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:

- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him

- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security

- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life

- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines

- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)

And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:

- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism

- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.

- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.

- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.

I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.

I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.

I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.

I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.

LOL! Exactly where I fell off the log.

Grig, my granddaughter, who lives with us, will be carefully taught that polytheism and Christianity are incompatible, that the Jesus of Mormonism is that false Christ of which the true Christ warned us, that this American experiment with Gnosticism initiated by Joe Smith is the same kind of error the Apostle John warned us was coming, and to have nothing to do with it, because it is of the spirit of antichrist. See 2 John 1:10-11.

It is sad then to see you translate our sincere effort to obey the teachings of Jesus and his apostles as hatred toward you. It is not.

Let me ask you a question. What does love do for the one loved? If I see my child run into a busy street, do I calmly ignore it? Or do I go yelling after the child and give myself no rest until they are safely out of harm’s way?

What you see as hatred, we see as love. We do not want souls lost. We have seen the desolation of being lost, because at one point we ourselves were hopelessly trapped in the prison of unforgiven sin. Jesus saved us. He is the eternal God, and there is only one God who saves souls, and he will not give his glory to another. Believe me when I say, more loving words than those do not exist in this or any other language.

Name a Mormon FReeper who has even been critical at all of Mitt Romney, let alone opposed to his candidacy. I can’t think of any, despite all the proud advocacy of Prop. 8 in CA and all the support Mormons recieved for this effort here, compared and contrasted to the record of Mitt Romney. Logical disconnect. Cognitive dissonance.

“Oh, yeah, and about his casual reference to Evangelicals and Moslems being nutjobs...”

Not what I said. I said the theoretical individual would be a nutjob, not all people of that faith.

Joseph Smith was killed while he was a presidential candidate, and the mob that did it wasn’t motivated by politics but by religious intolerance. There has been some very inflammatory rhetoric from some corners of the evangelical world about having a Mormon POTUS that could incite a nutjob to violence.

I guess we will agree to disagree. I have no idea when the Romney clan arrived because this site was solidly against him. But that is ok. But there are people solidly unhappy with him being nominated like me.

I get that it has become a nightmare election so it confusing to know what to do and for some they’ll the lesser of two evils. But that doesn’t change the fact Romney has issues and problems with conservatives.

I’d Rather the tea party would just create a new party after this election season.

I gotta say, FRiend, you've totally lost me here.

First off, I don't know which FReepers are Mormon and I don't care.

Second, even if every Mormon FReeper has never been at all critical of Romney, so what? What does that have to do with this thread or anything I've posted?

Finally, you seem to be upbraiding Romney for his views with respect to gay marriage but in fact he is campaigning on the position of being totally opposed to it, and Obama has come out in favor.

So what the what?

I consider this a form of rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

The truth matters in every sphere and Romney is not of the truth in any way. I hope you will reconsider.

Another thing, I don't think Jesus was telling people to support Caesar. He was tacitly pointing out that the fiat tribute money used to enslave them was a violation of the second commandment:

Exodus 20
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Deuteronomy 7:25
The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.

Psalm 62
9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.
10 Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.
11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.
12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

“Well then, defend Mormonism.

If I post a comparison of scripture in comparison to Mormon books and literature, tell me why I should see it as christian.”

‘Mormon books and literature’ that is pretty vague and includes a whack of stuff that is nothing but some author’s opinion and not at all binding on the church. If you want to compare against the Bible, then compare against what is in our scriptures’ I’ll be happy to converse with you on that via freepmail as long as I’m not zotted for this and as long as you give fair consideration to my replies and remain intellectually honest.

I have no idea when the Romney clan arrived because this site was solidly against him. But that is ok. But there are people solidly unhappy with him being nominated like me.

I was solidly against Romney until he won the GOP nomination, since then I have been solidly for him.

I think of it as ordering from the menu.

But that doesn’t change the fact Romney has issues and problems with conservatives.

Everyone knows this. My proposal is that we discuss it after November 6th. What is your proposal?

I’d Rather the tea party would just create a new party after this election season.

I think third party-ism is suicide in any circumstance, and is particularly foolish suicide given the success of the tea party movement. We conservatives are steadily taking over the GOP for the first time since 1980 and you want to cut and run now?

President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life

Romney has always been a disgraceful human being and an embarrassment to good conservative people.

His speeches, fund raising, pleadings for abortion, his saying we only want our rifles to hunt down and kill people, his socialism and evading of military service, his compulsion to lie about everything, claiming to have marched with Martin Luther King with his dad, claiming to be a gun owner, being busted twice for keeping the same illegals for 11 years, hating Reagan and smearing him and on and on.

Romney is the sleaziest republican we have ever seen win the nomination, he lies about everything, truth is worse than nothing to him, he will lie when he doesn't even have a reason to, and him and the gay power movement, wow.

Correctly if I am wrong, but generally those same people like you pimping Mitt Romney and so enraged and against Sarah Palin. I wish it were no more than jealousy and a rivalry of sorts. But it really sounds like your kind wants to demolish her. Your only making it harder to embrace Romney. And setting up a dangerous scenario where the party splits for good.

Correct me if I am wrong, but generally those same people like you pimping Mitt Romney and so enraged and against Sarah Palin. I wish it were no more than jealousy and a rivalry of sorts. But it really sounds like your kind wants to demolish her. Your only making it harder to embrace Romney. And setting up a dangerous scenario where the party splits for good.

Correct me if I am wrong, but generally those same people like you pimping Mitt Romney are so enraged and against Sarah Palin. I wish it were no more than jealousy and a rivalry of sorts. But it really sounds like your kind wants to demolish her. Your only making it harder to embrace Romney. And setting up a dangerous scenario where the party splits for good.

Taking over the party has become a bit difficult. And it is romney getting nominated is no help. I do hope we do elect conservatives this fall to congress, but so far they haven’t do as much as most on this site, at least, wanted. We’ll see, but this dance with rinos and backstabbers will continue if Conservatives stay in the party.

And you can’t just turn off a switch that quickly from one day to the next with regards to the dislike of Romney. After November 6th is way way too late. He’s not even trying to embrace the tea party at this point and when he did a lame attempt in New Hampshire in January the tea party protestors came out.

At this point I am for voting 3rd party. But you are not. So we’ll never agree. For me when both sides are so bad then the best thing is to stick it to both. We lose no matter who wins, but you don’t see if that way. So we are just viewing it differently.

"Yet on every political thread the Mitt Haters bring up their same wild charges again as if they are being made for the first time and have never been responded to."

Sadly that is true. The level of discourse has gotten to a pretty low level.

To be sure . . . my point is to the "defenders" of Mitt. Saying that many dislike Mitt's politics because of his Mormonism is no different than liberals saying to disagree with O is racist.

jus sayin!

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