Posted on 06/10/2012 1:50:46 PM PDT by Former Proud Canadian
That was my reaction as well. The worst cesspool in America has better healthcare than the workers' paradise up north.
Certainly much of ancient medicine was little more than shamanism, but among the ritual were practical means of promoting healing, and mankind long ago began to sift out the idolatrous pagan elements, and excise them from medical practice. We dispensed with the incantations and feather waving, but kept the practical things; splinting broken bones, for instance. We found that splints promote correct alignment and healing of the bones even if you don't intone the magic words or burn the incense. So, we keep the splints, and ditch the rest. There has been this centuries long filtering taking place that you simply dismiss as if it hasn't happened at all; as if modern medical practice still included all of the ancient mumbling of incantations, waving of feathers, and blowing of smoke at the ill and injured. What rot! That's like saying an F1 racing car is just a hopped up ox cart from 3000BC. That's ludicrous on its very face, and isn't supported by empirical evidence, much less by Scripture.
You make assertions that are not supported by scripture.
To the exact contrary, it is I — NOT you — who have presented the exact Scriptural text in support of the points that I have made. You have quoted no passage verbatim, nor have you expounded upon any, nor have you given a clear exegesis of any, nor have you answered ANY of the expositions that I laid out. You insist that your view is correct, but make zero effort to show where I have misread the texts that you yourself mentioned; no effort to point out where my exposition of them may be flawed. All you have done is skirt my points with a dismissive wave of the hand, and come back at me with your original "medicine is evil" mantra time and again.
And in the face of that you accuse me of making scripturally unsupported assertions... You HAVE got gall, I'll most definitely grant you that.
Fish or cut bait. Defeat my arguments legitimately, clearly, in plain language, from the biblical text. I will concede to nothing less. You believe that you are right; make your case exclusively from the biblical text.
Nor is there clear evidence that Luke had not practiced the pharmakea, nor is there evidence what medical practices he did perform. All we do know is that Luke was a physician, everything about what he actually did in the practice of medicine is PURE CONJECTURE, and scripturally unsupportable.
So, then, you follow-on assertion that "Paul was giving recognition to Lukes spiritual gifts" is also conjectural. Paul MAY have been thinking of Luke's spiritual gifting, but that is mere conjecture, all we can be certain of is that the plain text conveys a clear acknowledgement of Luke's profession as a physician.
Prior to the release of the spiritual gifts by Christ, the only recourse to healing that was spiritually permissible was the Levite priest.
I expect that you make an exception for the acts of the prophets;l for the healing and resurrections they performed? Certainly these were spiritually permissible. Were the prophets from among the Levites only? Clarification is needed, at this point.
Do you consider Mark to be less inspired of the Holy Spirit for speaking ill of the pagan priests that the woman had turned to?
I do not read that Mark condemns those doctors; he merely makes the point that the woman went to many, that she spent a great deal of money going to see them, and that none of them could help the woman. That is not the same as condemning them for trying to help her, far less for being doctors. And Mark most certainly does not consider the doctors to be pagan priests else he would have written "pagan priests." Especially seeing as his writing is an inspired gospel, if it were the perspective of God that the "doctors" were "pagan priests" the Spirit of God would have had Mark write "pagan priests" and not "doctors" so that the church would have clarity on that point. God is a God of order, not of confusion.
Do you include ox carts and chariots?
Absolutely. If God can miraculously, instantly heal anything and everything that is messed up with my body — and He certainly CAN — then, if trusting in a physician to heal me is idolatry, it is also idolatry to trust an ox cart to move me and my load from Point A to Point B. For the same God who can miraculously heal me, could as easily levitate the whole kit and kaboodle from Point A to Point B.
Woe is me, for I am undone! For I see, now, that it must be an egregious idolatry for me to trust in the image wrought by Chevrolet by which I came to work, today. I now see that The LORD would rather that I trust in Him to do for me as He did for Philip, and miraculously transport me from home to work and back every day. I must repent of this damnable idolatry of trusting in Chevrolet! Please pray for me, for I am backslidden!
And — yes — I AM using absurdity to illustrate the absurd.
The only absurdity here is yours.
If Luke ever did practice the pagan arts, it is certain that he would have ceased when the Holy Spirit filled him. It is equally certain that the great and learned apostle Paul would not have praised Luke for such practice, especially in light of Pauls views of the Athenians.
In your second paragraph, you seem to lose awareness of the fact that this is the word of God we’re talking about, not just a casual letter between friends. We can be certain that Paul was indeed speaking of spiritual matters, not pagan nonsense; this is not conjecture. Physician was not in any way an honorable profession at that time, so praise would have to have been for something else.
If you need clarification that the Apostles were acting in the proxy of the Holy Spirit, perhaps your Bible doesn’t contain the word Holy on the cover, or is this more immature sarcasm on your part?
Now as for your prattle on Mark’s clear remarks about the pagan healers, you need only re-connect with the fact that Mark was a believing Jew, and as such was well aware of the prohibition against turning to outsiders for healing or anything else for that matter. They were a people apart, by the commandments of YHWH. The word for ‘healer’ implied paganism on its face, and it was the choice of the English translators to cloud that issue, although they would likely have paid with their lives had they impuned the king’s knighted healers in their text.
So yes, God is a God of order, and he is working through his Holy Spirit to set the record straight, although not all who profess him seem ready for the pure light. It does take courage to take that step, but more and more of his elect are doing that in these changing and interesting times.
I’m going to ignore the foolishness WRT your attempt to impune useful tools as spiritually corrupting, as I do not believe you mean it.
Finally, God miraculously heals for his own glorification, not to relieve his children of the consequences of not following his instructions. Your healing is yours to take by eating the foods and herbs he provided; don’t hold your breath for unwarranted miracles.
THAT is my ENTIRE point: trying to impugn useful tools as spiritually corrupting is FOOLISHNESS. And medicine, as we know and practice it in this modern age, IS nothing more than a useful tool in PRECISELY THE SAME WAY that automobiles and cell phones are useful tools. And YOU are foolishly impugning the useful tool of modern medicine, and — unlike my own foolish jesting — YOU REALLY DO MEAN IT.
Whatever the practice of medicine entailed in the First Century is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT to what happens in modern hospitals and doctor's offices, no matter how you twist and squirm to try and dodge that reality.
You attempt to use the biblical text to impugn modern medicine; to back it into a corner and tar it illegitimately with the same brush used legitimately against the witch doctors of ancient pagan civilizations, and remote tribal peoples yet in existence, but you cannot cite clear biblical texts that support condemning modern medicine UNLESS you are able to also keep modern medicine imprisoned by its distant pagan roots; roots that ceased to be part of the medical profession a very long time ago.
So, first you unjustly shackle the modern practice of medicine to its very distant past, not allowing that it long ago abandoned the pagan trappings that rendered it unclean for God's people; then, having thus burdened modern medicine with the albatross of the very distant past that it left behind, you proceed to condemn it for wearing the albatross with which you yourself adorned it; and you assail it with scurrilous accusations relating NOT to the present, but to the distant past that medicine abandoned so very long ago; a past you stubbornly, unfairly, unjustly, REFUSE to believe that modern medicine has left behind, no matter that the fact is readily apparent to the universe at large.
The sum of your argument is, "Medicine was once a spiritually corrupt profession shot through with idolatrous pagan practices, therefore — all these centuries later, and in spite of all intervening discoveries, and developments, many of which were made by godly men and women — medicine is STILL a spiritually corrupt profession shot through with idolatrous pagan practices, and therefore no godly person may legitimately seek modern medical help."
You're contending that a huge, dynamic body of knowledge and practice involving hundreds of thousands of individuals worldwide, over hundreds of years remains corrupted in all quarters, and at all levels, by a past it abandoned centuries ago.
And I'm the one being absurd?
I have to immediately disagree on one of your key assertions:
“Modern medicine” may differ slightly technologically from ancient medicine, but not morally in the vast majority of cases.
Modern medicine is not a healing system in general; it is a maintenance system, relying on deadly drugs that will never improve the ultimate condition of any patient.
Drugs are not cures for disease; they are nothing but a huge cash cow for medicine, pharma, and congress. They fund most of the corruption of the governments of men in the 21st century.
The cures for every disease are available, and have been as long as man has walked the Earth. God didn’t leave man waiting for the 21st century to be healed; he provided the cures before they were even needed.
How do you suppose men lived 800-900 years for the first 1500 years? They must have been doing something right.
How did the Israelites live in their march through the negev dessert? Or Noah’s family on the ark?
The Levite priests had the tools to cure everything, and they used them daily.
I don’t say that all doctors are part of the scam, just the great majority. There are dozens whose writings I have in my library, that describe in detail the many curing protocols that are available to all at little to no cost; certainly less than 1% of the costs of the death dealing potients of big pharma.
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>> The sum of your argument is, “Medicine was once a spiritually corrupt profession shot through with idolatrous pagan practices, therefore — all these centuries later, and in spite of all intervening discoveries, and developments, many of which were made by godly men and women — medicine is STILL a spiritually corrupt profession shot through with idolatrous pagan practices, and therefore no godly person may legitimately seek modern medical help.” <<
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You’re close in some points with that statement, but I wonder why you disagree? God’s word says “there is none righteous.” Do you accept that as fact? Why would you believe that the world is getting better when God says it is getting worse?
The prophets called it Mystery Babylon the Great. A massive corrupt pagan (Earth based) beast of immoral doctors, lawyers, engineers, merchants, clerics, chemists, captains, and kings that killed the prophets, burned their firstborn in the fire, martered the saints, and cheated the poor and widows.
Do you think its gone now and there is no need for Christ to return?
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Denial rules.
>> “You’re contending that a huge, dynamic body of knowledge and practice involving hundreds of thousands of individuals worldwide, over hundreds of years remains corrupted in all quarters, and at all levels” <<
Yes, that is true.
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>> “by a past it abandoned centuries ago.” <<
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An assertion not supportable by the facts in evidence.
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Your posts remind me of the joke about the guy trapped in rising flood waters. A neighbor with a fishing boat stopped to pick him up, but the man refused saying he trusted the Lord to save him. As the waters rose a police boat stopped to rescue the man, but again he refused saying that he trusted the Lord. Then the water rose to the roof and a Coast Guard helicopter came to rescue the man, but still he refused saying he trusted the Lord. Then the man drowned.
When the man appeared before his Maker the man said “God, I trusted you to save me, why did you let me down?” God replied: “What do you mean let you down? I sent two boats and a helicopter!”
Don’t for get that its just a stupid joke, not in any way connected to reality, and it won’t trip you up too bad.
He isn’t sending any boats or helicopters; he sent us food that heals. Eat it and live.
"Slightly"?? You mean the kind of "slightly" like how the space shuttle differs from a paper kite? C'mon...
I'll grant that the moral conditions of medicine are not much changed; human nature is a statistical flat line across all history, but I would contend that more modern times have stripped the pagan shamanism, and left just the "wealth for health" capitalism that was always there, so the whole system is much more secular having left the false religious trappings behind.
Modern medicine is not a healing system in general; it is a maintenance system, relying on deadly drugs that will never improve the ultimate condition of any patient.
Drugs are not cures for disease; they are nothing but a huge cash cow for medicine, pharma, and congress. They fund most of the corruption of the governments of men in the 21st century.
The cures for every disease are available, and have been as long as man has walked the Earth. God didn’t leave man waiting for the 21st century to be healed; he provided the cures before they were even needed.
Uhhh, well, I suppose there's some 800-page tome that documents all of this, and I suppose it reads much like the 800-page tome detailing CIA involvement in the Kennedy assassination...
There's no cite, and a HUGE requirement for support of these claims; support that would demand extensive, in-depth study below the radar of all of these participating elements.
Somehow, though, I get the feeling that somebody out there is the big hero who has taken on all these bad guys, got the dirt, published it, and I can get the 800-page book for just $19.95 plus shipping and handling... Point me there; I'm sure his website takes PayPal.
Point me to the people who are living to be 115 years old because they know all of these ancient Levitical cures and dietary secrets. Where is this burgeoning community filled with the very paragons of human health?
MY roots are in Missouri. SHOW ME.
How do you suppose men lived 800-900 years for the first 1500 years? They must have been doing something right.
God did the something right; He made the human body to live that long, then made a tweak in Genesis 6; lowering the "ceiling" to 120 years.
How did the Israelites live in their march through the negev dessert? Or Noah’s family on the ark?
Differently.
Noah and his family packed sufficient food. The Israelites had manna and water; only one of which survives to this day.
Oddly, on their second walking tour of the Negev, everyone died but Joshua and Caleb.
The Levite priests had the tools to cure everything, and they used them daily.
Sorry, that's another cite-less claim; without SOLID support it's just too "George Noory" for me to buy in. Got any archaeological backup you can point me to?
Citeless claims?
You’re saying that you’re unaware of the billions of dollars that big pharma funnels to congress?
You’re unaware of the instructions in Torah to seek the priest for healing?
I tend to expect more understanding from FReepers, I guess.
None of these are in any way secret. Lack of motivation appears to be causal. There is no need to pay for any of this info, that’s for sure, but if you’ve been so disinterested, there’s no call to spoon feed you.
I only responded because of the attack that you posted to me for having the audacity to state the facts. Surprising is the revelation that you actually believe that God left us without cures, and in need to turn to godless men for our needs. My eyes have been pegged open now though.
If I should run into an 800 page tome for $39.95, I’ll be sure to foreward the URL to you. Meanwhile, the most complete compendium of cures for the deseases from which men suffer is available, free for the taking at Webster Kehr’s web site every day of the year:
. http://www.cancertutor.com/index.html
Be cautious though, I’m sure that you’ll be tracked by ‘them’ for visiting such a subversive site.
I do not have the time this evening to find the campaign contribution links for you, but perhaps over the next few days. You probably won’t believe them anyway; this has trigghered a fear reaction in you that demands denial.
Then you tell me what herbs I can go get you to cure it. /s
This is very newsworthy that some went to Detroit to survive.
did the Canadian ER doctor get fired?
That Detroit hospital rocked on this one.
How soon before we are just like Canada?
ugh
A $5 charge that half of America would be exempted from plus illegal aliens while a few end up paying three or four times as much.
Continue the cannabis you’re using until relief becomes apparent.
Nothing happened to the doctor. I'm sure part of the reason for this publicity is to loosen the government up in terms of sending patients to the US for emergency treatment. The doctors want to make those decisions and not leave it in the hands of the bureaucrats. Go figure.
I see you didn’t answer the question...but that’s NOT surprising.
Slippery elm bark is definitely the choice for the lacerated liver and for the spleen, along with cayenne to control the hemorrhaging. For the lung it would be advantageous to know the cause. Lobelia would certainly be helpful in any case; surgery almost never is.
Clearly should have read further before posting. My explanation, although not an excuse, is that the original thread is seared, John Kerry-style, in my memory.
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