Conceal Carry Fire Power (vanity)

[Qwackertoo]

In light of the incident in FL, woman whacked shooter with her purse, and now in AZ and the woman grabbed the second clip before he could re-load . . . I'm a lady and carry a .380 Ruger LCP. I'm thinking it wouldn't do much good in these situations AND I'm thinking I could easily get myself shot IF the police or others thought I was the SHOOTER and not someone trying to help.

Scary days we live in. Play dead OR try to take the shooter out? Get a bigger gun? I also own a Colt .357 but too big to carry much less conceal.

I think both of those two older ladies were quite brave in the face of grave danger in both of these shootings.

[T Minus Four]

If you CC and you would choose to play dead in a situation like this, you should shred your permit.

[panaxanax]

No need for a bigger weapon. Just practice with your .380 and make your shots count.

[Qwackertoo]

Really? With a .380? I’m prepared more for a one-on-one situation, not a mass murderer.

[oyez]

Take the shooter out and find yourself in a serious law suit by the Brady types. You probably would be acquitted, but be in debt for the rest of your life.

[flintsilver7]

The new (introduced last week, I believe) Ruger LC9 is slightly larger and heavier than the LCP, but you would have the added benefit of the larger cartridge (and the added stopping power of +P loads).



As for worrying about what good you can do, that's a tough question. If you're concerned about your ability to handle a situation where a mad gunman is shooting wildly, I think that's perfectly reasonable. Few if any people are really equipped to handle that. Few if any people will ever be exposed to that, though, which is good. I think if you're actually concerned about that you should consider taking some shooting courses (or even some tactical shooting courses). If you're not comfortable with your weapon or your ability to use it effectively, it won't do you much good.

[Qwackertoo]

I was thinking get off a shot(s) to the chest or the face but that guy in FL after the security guard started shooting at the shooter, he still managed to get off another 6 or so shots at him and the security guard had clipped him in the leg or shoulder, not sure which.

[TSgt]

If you CC and you would choose to play dead in a situation like this, you should shred your permit.

BANG BUMP!

[Qwackertoo]

I think your suggestion of a shooting course is a good one that I should do. I’ve only had my carry permit a less than a year and spent several months this summer and fall with a broken ankle so haven’t been able to practice much. I’m thinking the element of surprise, as I don’t look like someone who would by carrying a gun, would help in taking someone out. I doubt I will ever be in such a situation but neither did these two women in these recent shootings.

[Robbin]

I also CC a 380 LCP pocket pistol. And when in public places I carry a Sig S&W 40. I carry the LCP so I am always armed, but I wouldn’t start a gun fight with it. If my family and I could retreat, I would. The Sig on the other hand is fast, accurate and plenty of stopping power. I would be much more likely to come to the defense of the public at large with that in my hand. Chances of a cop showing up before the shootout is over is near zero. The only reason it happened in this case is because it was a public building with security. Anywhere else, and the cops are there to draw lines around the bodies.

[mnehring]

IMHO, your comfort with a gun is more important than size. A .38 is a great size and does have the stopping power for most situations. If you are comfortable with that, stick with it.

[T Minus Four]

I’m prepared more for a one-on-one situation, not a mass murderer.

Well, there was only one of him. If I had a shot I would take it. Maybe I'd go down too, but maybe I could have gotten to him before he shot that little girl.

[Renegade]

Trade in the LCP for the .357 LCR.(same size) You can use personal defense .38 Special +P without killing your wrist and get twice the knockdown power than the .380 Odds of a malfunction with a wheel gun are much lower than a semi-auto.

[Little Ray]

Your weapon would be perfectly adequate for this situation. The main question would be, “Do I have a clear shot?”

In any case, pistols are all about placement, placement, placement. “Knock down” is a myth.

Spend more time at the range. Don’t practice punching holes, but shoot like you might have to in real life. The are some some shooting groups, like IDPA, that can help you. But anything that mixes it up and makes you react to different situations and stimuli than just a pistol target is good.

Use JHP (jacketed hollow points) if you’re worried about how big a hole you’re making.

[VeniVidiVici]

Learn Situational Awareness. If you do, you would always anticipate that something like this could happen at a political event. And you’d be ready for it.

[GenXteacher]

You carry a gun to defend yourself. Do exactly that. The gun you mention is useful at short range at a very close encounter. And that is fine- most shootings happen at less than 7 yards. If caught in a situation like the one in Arizona, you just have to evaluate- very quickly- what your ‘probs and stats’ are, and go from there.

[Qwackertoo]

Also, I’m sure at the school board meeting, being school property carrying there is illegal. Twice in the past two weeks I’ve had to go to the courthouse to pay property taxes, no carry and left in console and again at a school function on school property and again left in console. Does one break the law, NOT in the courthouse, but other places and carry anyway or just what do you do in those cases? That is probably when I would need one when someone went crazy and mine would be in the console of my locked vehicle or I would have had to make the decision to break the law myself.

[hoosierham]

What difference could it possibly make whether the bad guy shooting people is "only" a robber versusus a mass murderer?

If you're armed ,shoot the scumbag,because if he is a robber planning to leave no witnesses alive or a mass murderer ,either way he will shoot you.

And a cold-bloooded killer of any type will likely make sure by a head shot to each victim if given the time.Playing dead is a risky strategy.

[West Texas Chuck]

Just my $.02 but I don’t plan to play dead. I intend to make dead any attacker that confronts me. I’m too old and broke down to try and fight with somebody so I have an equalizer.

.357 is a good weapon if you can handle it, I sometimes carry one. Not one of those little lightweight things either, a big full-on S&W with a 2-1/2” barrel. I keep it loaded with 125 grain JHPs. My normal CC weapon is an XD-40, 13 rounds of 165 grain JHPs. I am comfortable in handling it since I’ve put probably 5000 rounds through it, accurate enough for CQB and plenty of knock down.

Nothing wrong with that .380 IMHO, you can get some pretty decent self defense ammo for it, not like the old days. Learn to use that pistol and get some training as has already been asserted and I think you can trust it. Yeah, there is always the chance of being mistaken for a bad guy when you have it out but I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I have also wondered how a post shooting situation would go with all the chaos and LEOs rushing into the scene. Shoot the baddie and then reconceal your weapon and prepare to face the consequences of your actions. Most cops won’t shoot you if you obey their commands and put the weapon down if they catch you still presenting it when they show.

Stay safe. You’ll have to live with what you do either way you decide to go in a situation like that.

[Eagle Eye]

Concealed Carry is not a permit or license for heroism.

Permit holders are not obligated to insert themselves into gunfights.

[Qwackertoo]

I had heard one of the guys who held him down had done exactly that, play dead. So I’m just asking, I KNOW I could shoot another person and kill them IF it came to me or them . . . or my kids. This situation and the FL situation is helping me think through what I would do and how I could react and be more successful and fighting back and defending myself and perhaps others.

[hoosierham]

Practice with your .380 and go for center-of-mass and head shots in that order depending on your skills ,the distance,and risks of hitting others.And don't stop pulling the trigger until the gun stops making loud noises!

ONE minor bullet wound in the arm or leg will do little to deter the bad guy,but SIX or SEVEN .380s in the chest should do it unless he's wearing a good vest.And I say don't be reluctant to shoot the bad guy shooter in the back if he has shot another person.Just take him down!

[andy58-in-nh]

I would be much more concerned about your comfort level with the pistol you choose to carry and your accuracy with it. The .380 is not a large round, but the JHP (jacketed hollow point) version has perfectly adequate stopping power for close-in situational shooting. Shot placement is critical in such events, and time spent at the range and in situational study will help immeasurably.

Some people do not like .380 pistols because they are smaller framed and in my experience anyway, have more "felt" recoil than, say, short-barreled 9mm pistols. Their primary advantage is concealability, which is not a small matter.

[nevergore]

It was only a one on one situation....
You were only planning on taking out the shooter? Right??

[Elsiejay]

The prompt, decisive and effective action of the Tuscon woman in depriving the shooter of his loaded ammo clip is most commendable. However, according to reports I’ve heard the shooter was at that time being held down and restrained by two other erstwhile bystanders, and therefore not very effectively capable of physically opposing her grab for the clip.

[MHGinTN]

Precisely. I carried a .22 semi-auto for years. Practiced making ‘paper plate’ grouped shots under varying motions and speeds. Two locations on the human body using a .22 will drop someone: head shot, or well placed shot(s) to the bladder region where lots of nerves and major blood vessels run. The bladder shot is a very painful injury, while the head shot will likely disconnect brain from body muscles. I only changed calibers because I purchased a nice CZ82 in 9x18.

[OKSooner]

"If you CC and you would choose to play dead in a situation like this, you should shred your permit.

BANG BUMP!

'Nother bump. Anyone who would entertain such a notion has no business with a weapon, period.

[gwjack]

Little Ray, thank you for bringing a dose of reality to this thread. As you wrote,”pistols are all about placement, placement, placement.” That is why the clear shot is so important.

Qwackertoo, I carry a .380 LCP like you, because of difficulty concealing a larger firearm when I take my jacket off. So, I carry it in my front pant pocket with an extra magazine. My dad, and younger brother have patted me down to see if I was carrying a couple of times, and they have never found it. With the extra magazine I have 12+1 shots at bad guys. I also put on laser grips. The red dot assists in placement, and brings fear to the bad guy. With a small gun, any small rapid movement will alter the target acquisition. The red dot makes it unfair for the bad guys.

Also, my training is that the chest is not the best target area. Two to the soft abdomen (about the size of a hand) where the vital organs are covered.

Studies indicate that even law enforcement (who spend much more time at the range) lose about 50% of their effectiveness when adrenalin kicks in. That is why we must all be prepared, and trained, and proficient.

It is interesting to me that in Arizona, a concealed carry state, there was not one person that intervened before at least 19 shots could be fired by the wacko. One reason why I do not leave home without it/them anymore.

Gwjack

[sarge83]

a .380 in hand that you are comfortable shooting when the SHTF is better than an ak-47 at home in the closet. Practice and situational awareness is the key to surviving.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

A .380...with quality ammo and a good amount of practice to make your shots count...is a fine firearm for concealed carry.

[Deaf Smith]

"Permit holders are not obligated to insert themselves into gunfights."

Yet, one of the men (plus the lady that grabbed the mag) that held down & stopped the shooter was a Sheepdog.
He had come out Walgreens and ran to the sound of the gunshots. He was a CCL.

[Mr Rogers]

The only time I've pulled a gun, it was a 22/32 Kit Gun, and I didn't need to shoot. There were 8 of them, so if I had, I figured on taking at least one with me...but no one did the math (8-6=2)!

Good thing - in most shooting situations, I doubt anyone is going to shoot more than a couple of attackers before they either break off or shoot you.

I now carry a S&W Model 60 LS in my pocket. Only 5 shots & a 2" barrel, so I'm not likely to take on someone 100 feet away - but with practice, I think it would do the job at reasonable ranges. It would have sufficed in a Safeway, I think...

By troopervail at 2010-08-09

[taxcontrol]

I would remind everyone that a .22 that hits the target is far more effective than a .45 that misses. Even a .380 can be incapacitate someone with the right shot group.

I highly recommend the following banner for CCW holders. http://www.dsmsafety.com/home.html

Yes, it is not “manly” and yes it makes you look like a dork. But it could very well keep you from getting shot either by a cop of another CCW holder. After all, no one goes around wearing these things and it does make a person stop and think twice.

Normally stored in a pouch on the belt, it only comes out after the threat has been neutralized. It is designed to provide post incident identification and recognition. However, given the incident as described, I’m not sure it would save you from the purse.

[Obadiah]

Very difficult situation and those who post pat answers do a great disservice.

The adrenaline is pumping hard. People are panicking and running everywhere. The gunman is standing in an area surrounded by innocent people. If you take a shot you run the very great risk of hitting an innocent person.

There are no general answers beyond trying to mentally rehearse a potential bad situation and be comfortable with the weapon you do have.

All else is conjecture or bravado — or both.

[T Minus Four]

Concealed Carry is not a permit or license for heroism. Permit holders are not obligated to insert themselves into gunfights.

You are very right. But I did say "if I had a shot"

[jospehm20]

A person with a concealed carry permit has no duty to act on behalf of others as far as I know. I think it is up to the person to decide what to do in any given situation. I can personally think of many situations where I would be more worried about making sure my family and I were safe than I would be about helping people I do not know.

[Qwackertoo]

Glad to hear you are so confident in exactly what you would do. Hopefully you’ll never have to make a quick decision on if you might hit an innocent bystander or if the gunman grabs someone to use as shield. It must be nice to be so perfect.

[Qwackertoo]

Thank you for your reply. That is exactly what I was trying to do, mentally rehearse many scenarios of what and when to do something. The “pat” answers by macho would be heroes in their minds, are annoying.

[Gen.Blather]

I’m not a gun expert, nor have I played on TV. However, my concealed weapon is a S&W .380 Bodyguard. Without looking them up again, here are the numbers off the top of my head. A .380 round travels at 1200 feet per second. That is VERY fast for a revolver round. A metal jacketed round will ricochet like crazy. Also, the 3.5 inch barrel means you will have a very hard time hitting a target at more than 10 feet. The kill number on the metal-jacketed .380 round is around 12, which is low. A .45 caliber, which travels at 850 fps has a number around 50.

I carry Glaser Safety Slugs, these are $2 each. They are a plastic bullet filled with tiny pellets with a thin metal shell to hold them together in flight. This design imparts all of the bullet’s force by completely deforming against the target. The “safety” part of the name comes from their lack of ricocheting. Their kill number is about 45, or really close to the .45APC round.

Here are my recommendations.
1. Carry the gun where you can easily pull it. A variety of hidden holsters are available and women have a plethora of choices on how to carry it.
2. Practice, practice, practice. Put 50 rounds a week through it until you can reliably hit a man-sized silhouette at progressively longer distances. A Glaser hit will put a huge man down regardless of where it hits him; guaranteed. (I’ve fired 1000 rounds through any gun I expect to carry.)
3. Learn when to pull it and NEVER pull it unless you are in fear for you life. Otherwise, somebody will take it away from you.
4. When in doubt, run the other way.
5. Do not fire at more than 10 feet unless it is your only option.

[Eagle Eye]

No doubt there were brave souls on hand that day.

Some naturally tend to run towards the smoke while others run away and there is nothing inherently wrong with either action in the general sense.

The poster brings up some good and valid points regading the risk one faces getting involved in something like this where the bad guys may not be well identified and a good guy can be taken down or out by another good guy or by a cop.

I once had a forum discusson with a freeper who claimed that he never left the house with less than 4 hi cap mags of .45 and his pistol. He wanted to be prepared to engage shooters in public places such as malls, etc. IMO, that isn’t enough if one really expects trouble but too much for mere self defense. If one really feels the need to prepare for four reloads, maybe one should think more carefully about where one travels and try more to avoid dangerous sitations?

I think poster’s question is a very intelligent question for any person, especially those without police or military training to consider: At what point should one consider NOT inserting themselves into a gunfight?

[T Minus Four]

Maybe if lots of people wore these before an incident...(just kidding)

[Deaf Smith]

Las Vegas,NV would be a city for hesitation ( Erik Scott).

[Qwackertoo]

Thank you. I don’t have military or police training. I certainly didn’t expect to be told I should tear up my carry permit in the very first reply. I thought I had heard one guy, saw him interviewed on FOX News this morning, that after he took the gun out of the shooters hand, someone tackled him and held him down until they quickly he was NOT the shooter, he may have even been the guy that went into Walgreens to buy cigarettes and was actually carrying and the shooting started while he was in Walgreens, so I thought my questions were not of some chicken who should tear up her carry permit.

[justice14]

Very good post.

[Qwackertoo]

Thank you for the information, it is appreciated.

[TxDas]

“heard the shooter was at that time being held down and restrained by two other erstwhile bystanders”

Yep, shooting the perp in the head under these conditions would be considered unsporting and legally questionable.

[jdsteel]

Excellent points about having the correct ammunition. There’s 2 kinds of ammo you should buy; range ammo and carry ammo....not that you shouldn’t practice with some carry ammo from time to time, but it can get pricey!

[JoeFromSidney]

I refuse to get involved in the semi-religious debates about what gun you should own. I will only say that the Para Ordnance Nite Hawg (10+1) and the Para Ordnance P-12 (12+1) are both small enough for reasonable concealed carry, and do give you the capability of a .45 ACP. I suggest they are worth a look.

[yefragetuwrabrumuy]

From a purely tactical point of view, carry a knife.

While I honor and respect both CC and open carry guns, they have their limitations, gaps in situations where a knife is clearly better.

A good way of thinking about it is, of all things, trench warfare, where infantrymen quickly learned that it was best to have a pistol in one hand and a knife in the other. Between the two, an individual had the optimal ability to move quickly and inflict the most harm before other armed men could react.

The #1 problem for ordinary people is that a gun conveys a suicidal sense of omnipotence and control in a situation that does not actually exist. Many people have been shot multiple times and still been functional for as long as an hour, more than enough time to harm the person who shot them.

Second is that gun play is prone to having extended moments when bullets are not flying. This is a good example, when the gunman was exchanging magazines. Within range, there are no pauses with a knife, and people can rapidly close on a gunman, 15 to 25 feet in a few seconds.

Third, knife injuries are relatively far deadlier and disabling than are gunshot wounds. Psychologically as well, gunshots often feel like a hard punch, especially to a person who is inebriated, but knives slash across many capillaries, with a resultant gush of blood that penetrates even the dimmest of awareness.

[Eagle Eye]

A permit requires one to act very prudently.

Sometime the prudent thing may be to hold off on drawing until a better opportunity presents itself.