Posted on 10/12/2007 12:48:13 AM PDT by neverdem
In the spin room after the Republican debate on Tuesday evening in Dearborn, Mich., a reporter from the Arab-American News asked Ron Paul what he thought of the term "Islamic fascism."
"It's a false term to make people think we're fighting Hitler," Paul responded. "It's war propaganda designed to generate fear so that the war has to be spread."
Now, when Paul asserts that the war in Iraq is a mistake that is bankrupting America, he's making a serious argument which current polls suggest a majority of Americans agree with -- though not most Republicans. When he says 9/11 was the result of "blowback" from decades of U.S. foreign policy abroad, he's on somewhat more precarious ground, but at least there is still some shred of intellectual basis for his view -- albeit a Chomskyite one.
But when Paul says that the term "Islamic fascism" (or, for the purpose of discussion, its synonymous twin, "Islamofascism") is propaganda designed to spread war, he's veered off into the sort of paranoid fringe kookiness that keeps his campaign relegated to a side-show novelty act.
The term "Islamic fascism" was popularized, though not coined, by Christopher Hitchens, who wrote in the aftermath of September 11 that the attacks represented "fascism with an Islamic face" - which was itself a play off of previous variations of the same phrase. Long known for his Marxist beliefs, Hitchens, who supported the invasion of Iraq, has since fallen out of favor with the left. But that hardly makes him a propagandist who uses the term with the intent of "generating fear" and trying to spread war.
Indeed, as William Safire pointed out last year, since 9/11 the Bush administration has gone out of its way to find a label for the threat behind the...
(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...
Paul’s response to Islamofascist Q is reason enough to demonstrate why the Republican Party should have a vetting process for who can and can not be a bona fide member. That would clearly exclude Paul (libertarian ideologue) and Guliani(liberal in BrooksBros suit) as CINOs’ and therefore NOT good Republican material.
If one wants to exhibit Liberal tendencies/policies then go join the Demorat’s “conservative” wing.
Without this vetting process there is no effective way to cull out the decievers and weakLinks (aka RINOs).
That said I still don't think Paul is the man to be President. I see goodness and honesty in him, but not the "true grit" required of the type of leader this nation is going to need. I see that only on Duncan Hunter.
Bevan devalues his entire argument with that line. But that's not what I'll comment on. Bevan's argument does stand even with that flaw in choice of words. Here is the problem, it is the redefinition by at least 33% of the word "fascismo" from every historical context that makes the term "islamofascism" into politically correct mumbo jumbo newspeak.
"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]
Here's the Problem. If you call it Islamofascism but refuse to confront their "traditional elites", still allow their "traditional elites" access to our capital markets, still allow the sons of "traditional elites" to attend our universities, allow their "traditional elite" migration into the US, UK, other Western states to preach from Mosques they fund and own our corporations.
Remove the Islamic part of Islamofascism, and the fascists are customers of and own large stakes of our finance markets.
Doing what you say would reduce the Republican party to less than 15% of the American electorate.
You could as easily revive the Whig party if you really want to carry the banner of a lost cause.
Thompson come to my mind when you mention “True Grit,” who more closely resembles the Duke.
Barking Moonbat ping.
"It's a false term to make people think we're fighting Hitler," Paul responded. "It's war propaganda designed to generate fear so that the war has to be spread."
Oh, come now. Is it REALLY "news" when a politician refuses to bad mouth his own voting base...?
What udder nonsense you spout. By any measure America is a solid conservative place. By making the candidates come along to those lines of thinking would take us a long way towards the public honesty and moral fortitude that most here at FR and others on so many talk shows complain about being absent in America.
When one allows(supports or encourages) only the choice between the lesser of two evils, the result is still evil. This fractured and conflicted conceited thinking must stop or all this effort is for nothing worthwhile. The enemies of the West and America will see to that.
You should know better before you start calling people who disagree with you “uneducated”.
Fascism is a political ideology which is well represented in Islamic movements today. Hitler’s Nazi Germany was based on “master race” fascism. The Islamic movement today is based on religious fascism.
And since you think he's "right on target" you are as big a nut as he is. To say that the term was created to perpetuate war is an affront to decent people simply trying to call a spade a spade.
If only the 25th Amendment applied to the House they’d haul this loon away in a straight jacket.
true grit” required of the type of leader this nation is going to need. I see that only on Duncan Hunter.
MR HUNTER DOES EXHIBIT: TRUE GRIT
SOMEbody should tell dr. ron that this is NOT, as johnny edwards says a ‘bumper sticker’ war...these folks are for REAL..dangerous dedicated jihadis....he should shaddup on the downplaying of our extant danger.....i recently read where an insider journalist once camped out with them in afganistan....seems they set up their white tents on an open plane in the mts there..when the imbed pointed out to one of them that, coalition bombers were patrolling the skys, the tents were white,in plain sight and therefore, under these circumstances, they might be bombed and therefore might no longer live....the jihadi responded...’live? live? we didn’t come here to LIVE we came here to DIE’
even the NAZIS didn’t say stuff like that, mr paul...i’d say that makes the jihadi’s even MORE dangerous than the nazis as PBS says ‘ALL THINGS CONSIDERED’
in short we don’t need any claptrap about how some folks aint as bad as other folks....we need calls for alarm...the true alarm that is warrented in this global struggle....
in short ‘i aint votin for him’
That's like saying "At least Dr. Kevorkian only kills elderly or terminally ill patients, and not little kids."
How so?
Every political party has their own Dennis Kucinich.
Hitler’s Nazi Germany was based on “master race” fascism. The Islamic movement today is based on religious fascism.Osama isn't a fascist, he's a totalitarian. There's a big difference.
I just love these Ron Paul threads. On almost every other issue, Freepers are of one mind, and it gets kind of boring preaching to the choir. But, bring up Ron Paul and we go straight to Hitler.
If you like some of Dr Paul’s ideas, why did you post a thread with such a nasty title?
Your screen name is “neverdem”... well, the Dems over on “Democratic Underwear” are all rejoicing today at Al Gore’s trifecta - - Oscar, Emmy and Nobel and here you are on FR sliming the cleanest and best of all the GOP candidates! Ironic timing. Sad, too...
Just my humble opinion; no offense intended.
Religious fascism seems well suited to describe it. It is collectivist and in service to the power of the group that controls things in an area.
Where the Taliban and or al Qaeda run things, a type of religious fascism does rule. Remember Afghanistan before we took on that government? Well, in many places that same mentality has taken over and the results are the same. Al Qaeda ran much of al Anbar province in Iraq for a time. Was it a country, a state? No, it was an area that was controlled by al Qaeda. And in that area, they were the power. That power brutally enforced a type of religion based fascism.
Call it, not fascism but totalitarianism if you will; the results are the same.
Osama is not a national leader. He’s like their high priest. That doesn’t make it “not fascism”. It makes “religious fascism” an apt description.
Osama is not a national leader. He’s like their high priest. That doesn’t make it “not fascism”. It makes “religious fascism” an apt description.You don't get it. Read up on what fascism *is* and get back to me.
If Thompson had true grit, he would have done what his constituents wanted and voted to impeach Clinton.
Hitchens is no conservative much less neoconservative.
Fascism and Collectivism are almost - but not quite - synonyms for totalitarian big-govt regimes.
Hitler's Reich controlled the means of production, whereas Stalin's and Mao's government owned the means of production. All three states were ruled by a self-perpetuating Oligarchy (with the obvious exception that Hitler's state never got to perpetuate itself)
Both forms of government (fascism, communism) are left wing, socialist states. But more than this, both forms of government crush people who are of the wrong race and/or of the wrong ideology.
Islamic states seem to instinctively go for Big Government 'solutions' to the problem of statehood. In Syria, Eygpt, Saudi, Iran we see inpenetrable oligarchy, poor protection of property and - as we know - you get oppressed for being a Christian, Jew or the wrong sect of Muslim. Or for not hating the Joos enough.
In summary: Fascist and Communist are the same in practice, and - IMO - "Islamo-fascist" is a very apt term. Hope this is helpful
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fascist
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality
Here’s another:
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761568245/Fascism.html
Fascism, modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence.
Now replace race with religion.
Then what exactly doesn’t fit?
The second reference has much, much more detail if you care to read it.
If he is going to dismiss this one, he could have suggested a more accurate label. When he said the 9/11 attack was committed by “19 thugs, not a nation” (paraphrase), he again missed an opportunity to characterise the element(s) of cohesion that propogate attacks on civilians in the ME and beyond.
I think the ME terrorists are nihilists who exploit nationalism and Muslim fundamentalism to “stir the pot” until they are in power one nation at a time, with the goal of controlling (for starters) the ME and/or every nation with a large Muslim population. But because they are nihilists, they are empty at the core and you could throw the whole world down their gullet and they would want something else to kill.
Actually if you care to be truthful, it was Ron Paul that brought up Hitler’s Germany with regard to the word fascism. And the claim that those who apply the word fascism with regard to the modern Islamic movement are only people trying to perpetuate war so we can have bigger government.
But you knew that right?
Fascist, totalitarian, whatever, they are a threat and need to be smashed...
Damn, just damn...
Paul may have a point with the Hitler/fascism connection. Personally, I would like to dispense with Hitler and start using a new epithet such as: Stalin, Ho Chi Min, Lenin, etc.
Fascist Utopia and Islamist Utopia share the same means to their end.
Please make “don’s” don’t...
Ron-kook-paul is about to go on c-span.
apparently he is for legalizing pot. (per some cop for legalization who called)
Too bad we don’t have conservative seminar callers.
The c-span screeners are going to have their hands full with kook paulists.
I always thought RP was kind of cute, perhaps a bit kooky, but he said things about a lot of issues that I liked.
That being said, watching him talk about the war against Islamo-fascism is painful. He has blamed the US for "them" hating us, he has no understanding that this Islamist movement is trans national, very real, and very determined to enslave everyone else to their ideology with force. In an age of nuclear, biological, and other weapons that they desire to inflict pain on the world, his views are really naive at best.
Considering the Islamists have already killed several thousand of our citizens on 9/11, likewise killed significant numbers in disparate places such as Spain, England, Bali, and virtually everywhere they can kill innocents in the world, I find RP's pronouncements no longer cute, but seriously stupid and dangerous.
His statements in regard to the Islamist war are straight out of the DU, KOS, and Soros playbook, and that ought to make any libertarian or conservative at least pause to consider who they are really supporting here.......
Aw, shux.
So only the presence of a blitzkrieg is required for a Nazi Germany comparison?
Right! < /sarcasm >
Facism is defined by Merriam-Webster's as: A political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
That defines Hitler's regime, and it defines the Islamic facists.
So Paul is wrong. . .naturally.
He voted Not Guilty on the "Perjury" article.
Exactly....Paul should realize that Islamo-fascism is alive and well in the Middle East. Just a few examples include Saudi Arabia (where Chrisianity is banned), Egypt (where Christians are attacked on a daily basis), Uzbekistan (where demonstrators are shot down), Afghanistan (where Christians are expelled), and Pakistan.
Ooops, scratch that I should have said that these are emerging democracies supported by our tax dollars and, of course, anyone who doesn't know this should be "vetted" out of the debates, right?
Exactly....Paul should realize that Islamo-fascism is alive and well in the Middle East. Just a few examples include Saudi Arabia (where Chrisianity is banned), Egypt (where Christians are attacked on a daily basis), Uzbekistan (where demonstrators are shot down), Afghanistan (where Christians are expelled), and Pakistan.
Ooops, scratch that I should have said that these are emerging democracies supported by our tax dollars and, of course, anyone who doesn't know this should be "vetted" out of the debates, right?
Actually, that definition better fits more nationalist oriented states Egypt, Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia than a missionary Islamic state such as Iran...so if Paul is "wrong" he is only wrong in not calling these states Islamofascist (that is if your defnition is accurate).
Senators don't get to vote to impeach. That is the job of the House of Representatives.
Thompson voted to convict and remove Clinton from office on the charge of obstruction of justice.
“...the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley’s broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else... almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’.” -George Orwell 1944
Great quotation. Completely agree. The word fascist has become entirely meaningless. Paul was right to question it, esepcially nobody who trumpets the term uses it for Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, which are often just as repressive toward minorities.
>>>That being said, watching him talk about the war against Islamo-fascism is painful. He has blamed the US for “them” hating us, he has no understanding that this Islamist movement is trans national, very real, and very determined to enslave everyone else to their ideology with force. In an age of nuclear, biological, and other weapons that they desire to inflict pain on the world, his views are really naive at best.
Sadly, it looks like Dr. Paul needs to read “America Alone” by Mark Steyn, so he can see the international and demographic dimension of this Islamic conquest.
Still, Dr. Paul is one of the VERY FEW Republican candidates that is SERIOUSLY against illegal immigration—a critical component to win Republican votes. The U.S. has indeed been heavy-handed in the MidEast (to protect our oil source), but the international scope of the Islamic aggression and depravity far transcends Dr. Paul’s assertions.
In terms of politics, the GOP functionaries can only put up loser-Dole like characters: those who are faithful but uninspiring to the voters. Empty-suited politicians, not leaders.
There’s no mechanism (because of the ingrained GOP functionaries beholden to the current or past politicians) to bring up fresh candidates who can win. If the GOP can’t produce a non-RINO, anti-illegal, conservative candidate in this election, the GOP will follow the age-old pattern of a massive and cleansing defeat in order to produce the winning candidate four or eight years later.
“Less Bad” than the Democrat is not a winning strategy to values voters.
The Islamic facists want the whole world to follow their form of government. By the way, that's exactly what Hitler was trying to achieve as well.
Islamic facists is the perfect description of them, and Paul was wrong.
I stand corrected. An odd vote, but at least he got one right, which means he isn’t as much of a wuss as I thought. I was mislead by Ann Coulter’s latest column.
But what about his failure to get to the bottom of the Clinton/Red Chinese campaign finance schemes? Wasn’t he the Chair of the investigating committee? Did he even issue any subpoenas?
Touche. Again in my defense I plead that I was mislead by Ann Coulter’s latest column.
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