Posted on 08/08/2011 5:43:49 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
* This could be one of the Twenty News questions on Sunday
A: One Soldier, Two Bottles of Benzine
Q: What is the standard anti-tank weapon used by the Red Army.
http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1941/aug41/f08aug41.htm
Soviets to keep fighting behind lines
Friday, August 8, 1941 www.onwar.com
From Moscow... Marshal Timoshenko issues a proclamation to all Soviet citizens in enemy-occupied areas urging them to join partisan forces, carry out Stalin’s “scorched-earth” policy and “wreak merciless vengeance on the enemy... for the death of your children...”
In China... Japanese air forces begin a week of air raids on Chungking. A total of 40 raids are recorded by August 13th.
Interesting reading about the Finns. Could someone with more knowledge explain if they were true allies of Germany or just “enemy of enemy (Soviet Union) is my friend”?
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.etherington/month/thismonth/08.htm
August 8th, 1941
UNITED KINGDOM: Boom defence vessel HMS Barbridge launched.
ASW trawler HMS Coverley commissioned. (Dave Shirlaw)
BELGIUM: Brussels: The pro-Nazi Rexist (Belgian fascist) leader, Leon Degrelle, leads his volunteer “Walloon Legion” to fight with the Nazis on the Eastern Front.
NETHERLANDS: The Nazi controlled “robber bank” of Lippmann, Rosenthal and Co., referred to as “Liro”, issues its first decree, requiring Jews to register all assets and private property; additionally, they are to turn over to the Liro Bank all credits, securities, and large sums of Dutch and foreign currency. Jewish “customers” are allowed to keep a thousand guilders in cash, which they can use at their discretion. (Peter Kilduff and Jannifer L. Foray (209 p.147)
GERMANY: First rocket powered flight by the Me 163 V1 KE+SW.
U-627 laid down. (Dave Shirlaw)
LITHUANIA: German troops and Lithuanian collaborators massacre Jews in the village of Zeimel. (Drew Philip Halévy)
U.S.S.R.: German troops smash Russian defenders at Kazaki, taking 38,000 PoWs.
Moscow: The Russians seeking revenge for the bombing of Moscow, raided Berlin last night. Five Soviet Ilyushin-4 bombers took off from airfields on the Estonian islands of Dago and Oesel for the hazardous 1,500 mile round trip.
Two of the twin-engined aircraft were shot down before they got to Berlin, and two more failed to find the target. But the last one got through and dropped bombs on a suburb of Berlin. It was a small raid, but it was an indication of Russian determination to strike back at the Germans. It is the first of seven attacks during August.
CANADA: Western Isles trawlers ordered for RN in Canada: HMS Anticosti, HMS Baffin, HMS Cailiff, HMS Campenia, HMS Campobello, HMS Manitoulin, HMS Magdalen, HMS Porcher, HMS Prospcet, HMS Texada, HMS Ironbound, HMS Luscomb, HMS Dochet, HMS Flint, HMS Gateshead and HMS Herschel.
Corvette HMCS Arrowhead launched.
Corvette HMCS Snowberry launched.
Minesweeper HMCS Esquimalt launched.
(Dave Shirlaw)
U.S.A.: Japanese Ambassador Nomura suggests a conference between President Roosevelt and Japanese Prime Minister Konoye to discuss deteriorating relations between the two countries.
Les Brown and His Orchestra, with vocal by Betty Bonney, record the song “Joltin’ Joe DiMaggio” for Okeh Records. The song pays tribute to baseball great Joe DiMaggio who set a new record this year by getting hits in 56 consecutive games. (Jack McKillop)
It’s more of the latter really. The Fins never dedicated themselves to the attack on Russia in the fashion they could have. They pretty much moved into the territory they had lost as a result of the Russo-Finnish War of 1940 and stopped. On the other hand too, there was a point in time in which they may have been able to get out of the war and maintained their pre-1940 borders, but did not. This was more due to concerns over the German’s reaction to signing an armistice than it was to any desire to keep fighting the Soviets.
Finland was basically stuck between two superpowers and were influenced as a small country caught in the crossfire. Even after the war they were influenced into the sphere of the Soviets as the only superpower left in its immediate vicinity. They coined a term to describe this time of political spherical influence; Findlandization.
Finns were handed over to Soviets by Molotov=von Ribbentrop agreement. They fought hard enough to save their country, though over 400,000 lost their homes when the peace treaty was signed. Germany invaded USSR in part because of overreaction to Soviet ineptitude shown during Russia-finnish war. Recent release of recordings of Mannerheim-Hitler talks (recorded by Finns) show Mannerheim as skeptical and standoffish to Hitler. Shortly afterwards Finland switched sides. Mannerheim had been known for anti-german views during the Finnish War of Liberty (Finnish civil war)
Finns are to my mind, good people in a tough neighborhood. USSR eventually decided that Finland was more useful as a buffer state.
If I recall, the western Allies never declared war on Finland.
The United States didn’t, but the England and its commonwealth countries did. Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada actually declared war on Finland at the same time they declared war on Japan on December 7th and 8th. They also declared war on Romania and Hungary at that time.
As far as AG South is concerned, Halder was smoking crack. With only one Panzergruppe [Von Kleist’s], Rundstedt lacked Bock’s ability for encirclements on a large scale. Additionally, he was constrained by geography to a much greater degree than Bock. The Dnieper ran generally east to west on his left flank for a good distance. To the south was the Black Sea and Sea of Azov.Hence, no great turning movements.
He had to deal with a land bridge on his southern flank in Russian hands,the Crimea, which was reinforcible by the Russians until taken by the Germans. That tied up one of his armies [the 17th]. So basically, aside from his Romanian contingents, his striking power was basically Kleist and Reichenau. But Halder is still focused on Moscow.
"Thousands of Jews from Dvinsk, Latvia, are transported to the Pogulanka Forest and murdered."
"Members of the Latvian SS practice their marksmanship in preparation for future assignments.
The German occupation of Latvia in July 1941 not only filled the jails with political prisoners but also produced some 80,000 men for this SS legion.
These troops were used in the campaign against the Soviet Union, and they actively participated in the killing of Jews and Communists.
The most lethal Latvian killing unit, the Arajs Commando, killed some 30,000 Latvian Jews."
"Three Jewish men are hanged in Ternopol, Ukraine, in 1941.
They were killed either for having disobeyed German orders or in retribution for any offense someone in the Ternopol Jewish community committed.
Placards were often hung around the necks of the executed, to intimidate the living and provide a neat rationale for the executions.
Bodies of the murdered might be left hanging for days, until the Nazis felt that the local citizenry had had time to absorb the 'example.' "
If it was up to Halder, Moscow would have be the only objective. You’re right though. He really is missing just how precarious his position is with AGS and really is underestimating the size of the Russian reserve for that matter.
Now I forget, is Baldwin a good guy, or just somebody's stooge?
In either case, this piece well reflected the focus of top US official attention, and explains the efforts President Roosevelt was making behind the scenes, to draw the Japanese' attention away from Siberia.
I believe he is a straight shooter, making the best analysis he can given the information he has. I haven't read every column he has written (by a long shot) but it seems like he gets is right - as shown by later events - more than he is off the mark. He was a little late to the party in the run up to Barbarossa, but he didn't have access to the intelligence that governments did.
How about his estimate of air power though. Was the Brewster Buffalo really a match for what the Japanese had? I thought the Buffalo was obsolete by now.
I can see that the sanctions on petroleum products going to Japan might be expected to draw their attention back to the south.
We have now mentioned several times Navy Intelligence Commander Arthur McCollum's "Eight Action Memo" of October 1940, but have never actually listed all eight actions.
So here they are, quoting McCollum, and all were either accomplished or under way at the time of Pearl Harbor.
Robert Stinnett calls this memo the "smoking gun":
"...It is not believed that in the present state of political opinion the United States government is capable of declaring war against Japan without more ado; and it is barely possible that vigorous action on our part might lead the Japanese to modify their attitude.
Therefore, the following course of action is suggested:
- Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore.
- Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies.
- Give all possible aid to the Chinese Government of Chiang-Kai-Shek.
- Send a division of long range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore.
- Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient.
- Keep the main strength of the U.S. Fleet now in the Pacific in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands.
- Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil.
- Completely embargo all U.S. trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire.
10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better.
At all events we must be fully prepared to accept the threat of war."
Couple of corrections here. You have mention them, no one else seems very interested in them so there really isn’t a “we”. This is actually the second time you have posted the 8 items and the third time I’ve seen them posted on these threads. So much for “never actually listed”. I already put in my two cents on these last month. It’s just not as impressive as the conspiracy nuts want to believe it is.
I recently posted a barely legible photocopy of one page of McCollum's memo.
The posting's purpose was not to discuss the eight-actions, but simply demonstrate that the memo is real.
CougarGA7: "I already put in my two cents on these last month.
It’s just not as impressive as the conspiracy nuts want to believe it is."
It demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt the inspiration behind Roosevelt's actions toward Japan in 1941 -- the need to create "much ado" in the hopes that if "Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better."
It shows that FDR was not acting randomly, or maneuvering to avoid war, but rather was purposely doing the opposite.
Of course, it in no way proves that FDR's inner circle knew or suspected an attack was coming on Pearl Harbor in December, 1941.
But it does show that in some ways he wanted and expected some such attack.
And just so we keep things on the "fair and balanced" side -- if you are going to call me a "conspiracy nut", then I'll call you a "Pearl Harbor denier", pal. ;-)
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