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To: dangus
Right, Translation: You're simply better than everyone else. He made us all evil, but then he took a few and made them "worthy."

Actually you mistate what we believe. We believe that, for the reaon of His own good pleasure, that God took some worthless, dead, sinners who had nothing of their own to offer Him (among whom I am as worthless as the rest) and forgave us, made us alive, and imputed to us as a gift the righteousness of His Son. Read Rom 9 to see that nothing we have done affected God's choice.

What makes love possible? Free will. (And of course, Christ's love for us, but I'm answering your question in context.)

Ok, I'll bite. Please provide some Scriptural support for the concept of man's free will. I submit to you that man's will is not free but governed by his nature. I further submit that the concept of libertarian free will originates from Aristotle, not the Scriptures. Note, I am not saying that man is never told to choose to follow God because there are several examples where he is told to choose or repent. I am saying that passages like 1 Cor 2:14 suggest that man's choice is determined by his nature.

164 posted on 09/08/2003 2:04:50 PM PDT by RochesterFan
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To: RochesterFan
OK, finally, a reasoned response! Maybe I'm being the thick one now, but I don't see how what I said is a misstatement.

Is it semantics? I'm associating being imputed with righteousness as being better than not being imputed with righteousness. Is that the quibble?

And I still don't get why he'd impute it to some people and not to others.

As for free will making love possible: The Greek philosophers didn't INVENT free will making love possible; they examined the meaning of love, and asserted that freedom was a necessary component of the meaning of love. (By which I mean agape; eros IS compulsive, until we've mastered mortification)

The disciple John, having studied Greek though extensively, chose words such as "agape" because they fit what he was trying to express.

So we're looking at the Greeks not to appeal to a non-canonical source, but to understand what the disciples meant by their use of Greek words.

So I can't supply chapter and verse to prove that (agape) love means free will. But I cannot show you chapter and verse to prove to you what Logos means, either.
170 posted on 09/08/2003 2:35:51 PM PDT by dangus
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To: RochesterFan
What you are saying then is that predestination isn't REALLY predestination because God knows our "nature" and upon that "nature" he perceives in us He saves us. That "nature" is called "CHOICE". When we choose Jesus, then God Chooses us, but because He FOREKNEW that we would choose Jesus, He "predistined" from the beginning our salvation. BUT, if God chose NOT to foreknow the decision each of us would make, then He would not "predestine" us for salvation, but would have to wait to see what kind of "nature" we have. Jesus "chose" 12 disciples, BUT one of them decided to NOT become one of His "chosen" for salvation, and ended up "forsaking" Jesus.

John 1:6-12 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7) The same came for as a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that "ALL" men through Him might believe. 8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9) That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh INTO THE WORLD. 11) He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, but his own received Him not. 12) BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME.

So we must First "receive Him" as LORD and Savior, then he gave them "power" to become sons of God. We "choose" Jesus FIRST, then He gives he gives us the power to become sons of God, Even to them that believe on His Name.

308 posted on 09/08/2003 9:37:13 PM PDT by webber
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