The Christ of Arminianism

A Puritan's Mind ^ | unknown | Rev. Steven Houck

[CCWoody]

***"Choose you this day whom ye shall serve; as for me and my house, we shall serve the LORD!***

Hey, sparky, it doesn't help your case any when you misquote scripture. If you read the context of the verse (yes, you too can try something new), you will discover that Israel had already REJECTED the LORD. Their choice was between the gods of Egypt or the god of the Amorites.


And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served (that were beyond the flood) or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but I and mine house will serve the Lord.
(Jos 24:15 GB)

Woody.

You might be an Arminian if....

You think Josua's command to Israel to choose is such a radical proof that Calvinism is just a turd in the toliet, even though the two choices that Josua gave Israel were for the Egyptian & Amorite gods and not the LORD.

[As you well know...]

There is, however, another false Christ who is much more dangerous than the Christ of the cults and the Christ of Roman Catholicism.

Matt 16:18

[As you well know...]

I don't. I find the frothing humorous. Look, Calvin called us antiChrists, he hated the Mass, he called the Pope The AntiChrist..this is mild compared to the past

[CCWoody]

Matthew 22:35-40
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?"
Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (KJV)


Corin, I can really answer this question. Do you really want the answer or are you prepared to respond with some kind of emotional fit or something?

Woody.

[Alex Murphy]

webber: "Joshua, when he was speaking to the tribes of Israel: "Choose you this day whom ye shall serve; as for me and my house, we shall serve the LORD!

ksen: What about Joshua's household? Did Joshua poll everyone in it to see if they would serve the Lord, or did he decide for them?

And more to the point, what type of decision was Joshua proclaiming? I see nothing in Joshua's account that speaks to the issue of eternal salvation. I see Joshua speaking to the issue of obedience to the commandments.

Webber, are you arguing that obedience is a (prior) condition of salvation?

[ksen]

DUH.

That probably provides commentary on itself.

I think a God who knows "Everything" would also know who it is that will eventually accept Jesus Christ as Savior and LORD, so of course they were "chosen" before the world began. That's not "sovereign" predistination, that's knowing ahead of time who would confess their sins to God the Father, and receive Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior.

Fot the sake of argument let's say that God hasn't created anything yet. Let's say further that God has limited His creative options to two: 1) Creation "A" where Webber is saved and ksen is damned, and 2) Creation "B" where Webber is damned and ksen is saved.

God decides(dare I say God Elects?) to create Creation "A". Hasn't God decided, by the very act of choosing "A" over "B", that Webber would be saved and ksen lost?

If God Almighty is the one who "Sovereinly chooses" who will be saved, then, if He is also a "Just" God, should not condemn, or Judge any unbeliever because he had no choice but be an unbeliever because according to "your gospel", man cannot choose Jesus.

First, I assume by your term "your gospel" that you think I am a Calvinist. I am not. You can ask any of the others. I am resisting that title.

Second, if God were fair, or to use your word "Just", then we would all be going to Hell.

Third, it is not that man cannot choose God, it's that man will not choose God.

So neither can God cast the unbelievers into the "Lake of Fire". BUT HE DOES! Which means your "religion" makes GOD UNJUST, UNHOLY, UNMERCIFUL, UNGRACIOUS, UNLOVING..... and I for one DO NOT BELIEVE THAT! So that means your "sovereign predistination" religion is Blasphemy, Heresy, Abomination, Lies, of the Devil, Apostacy!!

Once again, I am not a Calvinist, although I am closer to their side of the debate.

[CCWoody]

His plan of Salvation NEVER CHANGES. ~ webber

• What do we know but that God is immutable.
• And, what do we all agree, but that there will be an everlasting place of torment.

When the Lord makes a promise, we ought to be out of doubt that He knows, and can and will perform what He promises; otherwise, we will be accounting Him neither true nor faithful, which is UNBELIEF, the height of irreverence, and a denial of the Most High Himself! And how can we be sure and certain, unless we know that certainly, infallibility, immutably, and necessarily, He knows, wills and will perform what He promises? We should be sure that God wills, and will execute His will, necessarily and immutably. Otherwise, where is the foundation of our assurance that what God wills for us will be executed necessarily and immutably? ~ Martin Luther

Yet, the Arminian will tell me that it is God's expressed will and desire to save all men everywhere without any exception.

My specific question is this: Seeing that the Arminian can only resolve the existence of souls in perdition with a change in God's will for them from one of a will to save to a will to damn forever and noting that this of necessity means that God's will is NOT immutable,...


then, what specifically is the foundation of your assurance that what God wills for us will be executed necessarily and immutably?

Woody.

[Corin Stormhands]

Anyway, I think your assessment of Calvinism in relation to the Lord's commandments is not valid.

I think it is valid to the extent that in my experience with Calvinism, the majority of those most concerned with the TULIP exclude the practice of the commandment.

It is not across the board. My boss is a Calvinist and a member of the church I used to attend. He is one of the most gentle and kind human beings I know. He's got his politics all screwed up, but that's a different story.

My best friend since college (best man in my wedding) is a Calvinist (and he survived in a Wesleyan college). We did manage to get his politics straightened out.

But if my opinions of Calvinism were based solely on my experiences here at FR...well...

[ksen]

Is webber Catholic? If so, then what is the big deal what the Scriptures say? Shouldn't the Magisterium's interpretation be what rules?

[Corin Stormhands]

Corin, I can really answer this question.

Can you do it without the sarcasm and the "You might be an Arminian shtick?"

Do you really want the answer or are you prepared to respond with some kind of emotional fit or something?

I guess not.

[Frumanchu]

But if my opinions of Calvinism were based solely on my experiences here at FR...well...

Again, that works both ways, and as I've told you neither Arminians nor Calvinists are exempt from prideful behavior.

Evaluation of a system of doctrine based on the words of a dozen or so followers of that system in a web forum is hardly what I would call well-reasoned. It is no doubt an emotional issue that we debate, but at the end of the day our emotion has no bearing either way on the actual truth of our positions.

[CCWoody]

Eventually, you will figure out that you of all people have no right to complain about my "You might be an Arminian if..." satire.

Now, when you decide that you intend to have an honest and real discussion about scripture, then you know where to find me.

Woody.

You might be an Arminian if...

You think that Calvinists are against the Law and don't think they are responsible for anything, while you proudly wear your WWJD braclet that you got at the last PK rally as a reminder of how you'll eventually get around to loving the Law.

[snerkel]

You still haven't answered who the terms "World" and "Whosoever" used in John 3:16 & 17.

It appears to me that the verses are self-explanatory. The word world is in reference to the human race. The word whosoever is in reference to those who WILL believe. The question is, how do we come to that belief? From a Wesleyan point of view, we come to that belief through Previenent Grace. Previenent Grace is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sins and bring us to repentance and God.

Why have you "predestinationalists" chosen not to anwer me on these verses? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? And Please, if you're not going to answer me about these verses, don't bother replying at all.

Grow up. You cannot build lay a foundation for doctrine from 2 verses in Scripture. Scripture has to be viewed as a whole. You cannot pick and choose what you agree with or disagree with.

By your editing out verses which do not support your "Blasphemous" viewpoint, you have already shown to me that you are nothing but a "Cult"!!

And you have shown your inability to rationally discuss without resorting to personal attacks towards those you disagree with on the FR forums. Is that the fruit of a mature Christian? I think not.

[Corin Stormhands]

Evaluation of a system of doctrine based on the words of a dozen or so followers of that system in a web forum is hardly what I would call well-reasoned.

Two interesting points:

My first argument on this subject here was with the_doc (aacck! ptui!) over that very same thing. Told him and the swarm of the day that if I ever became a Calvinist, and I certainly do not anticipate that I will, it will not be because of conversations here.

Second, if I implied that this was my only impression of Calvinism, I did not mean to. I spent 3 1/2 years in a Reformed Presbyterian Church (solid on all five points). While most of the people were most receptive to the oddball Wesleyans, I saw in a lot of the people there a harshness and a pride. Not as strident as we find here, and I suspect that none of us would be a strident in person. But still, I saw a family destroyed because the pastor told a young wife, a believer of less than a year "your husband is probably not one of the elect."

But, before long, he began attending church with her and supporting her in the activities there with the children.

When they couple having some struggles, she was booted off a worship team and told to come back when she had her life straightened out. Of course that was after the elders told her she dressed like a tramp (not in those exact words).

Today, that family is still together, but not in church. In fact the husband has forbidden her to take the kids to church.

Is the doctrine of Calvinism responsible for that? No, of course not. But it is what I have seen as the fruits of the doctrine.

And that is why I will contend until the day I die that Calvinism is a doctrine, it is man's interpretation. It is not "the gospel."

We ALL see through a glass darkly. We all struggle and try to understand the Word. Sometimes we get it right. Sometimes we don't.

I have not been convinced of the "truth" of Calvinism. More and more my experiences here simply reenforce my preconceived ideas.

[Alex Murphy]

Is webber Catholic?

I'm guessing that Webber is some variation of either Independent or Restoration Baptist (ie CoC for the latter).

[snerkel]

Corin, that sounds like the fruits of stupidism, not the fruits of Calvinism or any other Christian "ism". It is not proper to paint each other with such broad strokes, ,mainly because the attitudes of the whole cannot be generalized by the actions of the few.

[ksen]

Hey! I'M an Independent Baptist......HOW'S THIS? Should I START POSTING LIKE this? HERETIC SCUM!!!

[Corin Stormhands]

Eventually, you will figure out that you of all people have no right to complain about my "You might be an Arminian if..." satire.

The issue has never been whether or not I have a right to complain about your sarcasm. I have on countless occasions acknowledged that I have gone over the line. Have you ever?

But the real issue is whether or not you can defend your belief without the sarcasm. I think you can.

But you won't.

[Corin Stormhands]

I have said on countless occasions that my impressions of Calvinism are based on 1) my 3 1/2 years in a Calvinist church and 2) my year and a half lurking/posting here.

Maybe my impressions are based on the attitudes of a few. I'm waiting for someone to show me the "better Calvinist way."

I haven't seen it yet.

[snerkel]

Would you like a nice PLONK on the head?