Vatican Document Calls Celibacy Non-Negotiable

The San Diego Channel ^ | 6/28/03 | Associated Press

[MVV]

UPDATED: 4:42 p.m. EDT June 28, 2003

VATICAN CITY -- The Catholic Church's celibacy requirement for priests is non-negotiable.

That's the word from the Vatican.

The celibacy rule was reaffirmed in a wide-ranging document issued Saturday.

It acknowledges that fewer and fewer men are signing up for the priesthood. But it says letting priests marry isn't the answer.

Instead, it says current priests should dedicate themselves to attracting more candidates by better explaining the priesthood to lay Catholics, and by encouraging children to consider religious vocations.

The document touched on a host of other issues, including a call for Europe to be more welcoming to immigrants.

It also called for the "full participation" of women in the life of the church. But the Vatican says that doesn't mean as priests, since only men can be ordained.

Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[CobaltBlue]

Scripture tells us what is sinful, tradition doesn't.

[DallasMike]

Wouldn't a good corollary to that argument be that Christ ordained married men, therefore married men can be priests?

Excellent argument. However, there are people on this thread who for some reason believe that none of the apostles were married men. That's the low level of understanding that I'm having to deal with.

But as someone pointed out upstream, the Catholic Church relies not only on scripture, but on their tradition -- which is what they say it is.

Not only what they say it is, but what they say it is at a particular point in time. 600 years ago you would have had popes, bishops, and priests argue that selling indulgences was a perfectly fine tradition.

They also have doctrines like Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and praying to saints which were wholly unknown in the first 300, 400, or 500 years of the Church, depending upon which tradition you're talking about.

But I'd love to read about the early members of the Church from their own point of view.

Ah, but you can do that right now with the internet. Not only did I find Clement of Alexandria's Stromata for poor saradippity last night, I found it in both English and Latin. There are some excellent sites where you can read the original writings in either a good translation or the original language.

[RobbyS]

Many saints have thought of celibacy not as a burden but a liberation, because it gives them the freedom to give all to Christ. People often assume burdens of this sort because they like the challenge. Witness those who go into special forces. My son delcined to got that route. My son knew that there was a possibility that he would get shot at when he joined. If he had known that it was so likely, he might not have joined. In any case. if he comes home in one piece, he will not re-up. Every priest who finds he has gotten into more than he can handle can drop out. In any case, I ask your prayers for my son and his men.

[CobaltBlue]

If you're down on masturbation, that's your decision, but don't knock it. Old hags enjoy orgasms, too. Just don't think impure thoughts while you're doing it and you should be fine. ;^)

[RobbyS]

The two are not equated. Celibacy is regarded as a greater burden. The leader is an example for all and responsible for all. The priest is father of none and father of all. That's the ideal.

[CobaltBlue]

>>If the Church doesn't want a married priesthood, how does continuing to ordain married men strengthen the argument that married men can't be good priests?<<

Ordaining married priests is consistent with the way the Orthodox churches do. Allowing an unmarried priest to marry leads to the risk that he will marry one of his congregation, which is unethical because it is a conflict of interest.

As a lawyer, I would analogize from the rules against lawyers having sex with clients and doctors having sex with patients.

Doctors, lawyers and priests all have confidential relationships with their patients/clients/congregation that leads to potential abuse for several reasons - inbalance of power, knowledge of secrets, abuse of trust, taking advantage of somebody when they are at their weakest and need somebody to help them.

That's what's so especially awful about priests having sex with children -- the parents and the children trusted the priest, who is in a special position of trust that allows greater access to intimacy than you'd allow in someone less trusted.

Protestant ministers have the same risk, I suppose, but typically they marry young while they are under the supervision of an older pastor who will be watching them. Indeed, we know from Jane Austen that Anglican ministers were not above marrying a young rich member of their congregation for her money.

Against my argument is the argument that ministers being married doesn't prevent adultery even on a spectacular scale, as in Jimmy Swaggart.

[DallasMike]

Many saints have thought of celibacy not as a burden but a liberation...

Many, but not all. Paul said that those who have the gift of celibacy should embrace it, while those who don't should get married. Prohibiting someone from doing something that God allows is not wise.

[JohnnyZ]

I think it's very strange to equate chastity (sex only after marriage)

Just to clarify chastity is for everyone, and involves much more than sex being restricted to married couples. The Church's definition is more expansive, more like "morality with respect to sexual relations", and includes prohibitions on fantasizing about other women or marital sex that degrades human dignity and stuff like that.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

Proving once again why it is ridiculous to entrust the study and promulgation of theology to men who were plucked from life at a young age, encouraged to live in perpetual immaturity and in deprivation of the most basic understanding of how the real world (including real families) works, and fostering for centuries a theological culture that nourishes and rewards closeted gay men.

[RobbyS]

Again, those who don't have the gift can drop out. The same is true of a married couple. Gets kind of hard, though, to stop being a father or mother.

[JohnnyZ]

Proving once again why it is ridiculous to entrust the study and promulgation of theology to men who were plucked from life at a young age, encouraged to live in perpetual immaturity and in deprivation of the most basic understanding of how the real world (including real families) works, and fostering for centuries a theological culture that nourishes and rewards closeted gay men.

Wow . . . you're pretty bitter. Too bad you have nothing of value to add. Unless you're suggesting that all candidates for the priesthood should first be required to spend their youth as did St. Augustine? That would be interesting.

[RobbyS]

men who were plucked from life at a young age, encouraged to live in perpetual immaturity and in deprivation of the most basic understanding of how the real world (including real families) works,

Sounds to me more like the people who occupy the seats in our universities. And they are the true clerisy.

[RobbyS]

They are more like to end up like Ted Kennedy.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

Augustine? No - he was pretty screwed up. If anybody wanted to know how to get the most stable people into the clergy, I'd recommend the following:

1. Close the Junior Seminaries, and quit giving out bachelor's degrees at seminaries.

2. For acceptance into the seminary, cnadidates should be at least 30 years old, and have a bachelors degree. Preferred degrees would be in social work, psychology (with emphasis on counseling), sciences or business - less weight will be given to academic disciplines such as philosophy, literature, language, fine arts, sociology or religion.

3. Following seminary graduation, there should be at least a 5 year diaconate.

[ninenot]

Yeah. So?

Sin is rather dogmatic. Discipline is not. QED, and thanks.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

I agree with you on that.

[JohnnyZ]

They are more like to end up like Ted Kennedy.

Exactly, Ted Kennedy promulgating a church's theology would be interesting. :)

Seriesly, people (all y'all), have ya HEARD of inspiration? Of guidance by the Holy Spirit? I think it's hard to argue most of these things if people don't start out with a common understanding of the basics, and THOSE disagreements are not going to be resolved any time soon.

[JohnnyZ]

Preferred degrees would be in social work, psychology (with emphasis on counseling), sciences or business - less weight will be given to academic disciplines such as philosophy, literature, language, fine arts, sociology or religion.

More pop psychology, less religion.

Is that a joke? Well, of course it's a joke, I'm just wondering if you meant it as a joke. Sounds like you're trying to turn out ineffective government workers, not men of God!

[ChicagoGirl]

What if the particular unit that your son is a member of forced your son to carry 60 pounds of bricks in his backpack for no reason at all except "tradition."

Sounds like tough training for a tough job. Just because something is difficult, doesn't mean one can't do it.

[DallasMike]

Sounds like tough training for a tough job. Just because something is difficult, doesn't mean one can't do it.

But just because someone can force themselves unnaturally to do something doesn't mean that they should do it. Celibacy is wonderful for those who have the gift but not so great for those who don't. Paul said that if one cannot handle celibacy they should get married. Perhaps it might be wise to listen to what the Bible says instead of trying to make excuses for rules made up by men.

Clergy celibacy is unbiblical and was unknown in the early church.