Replies

I am not at all nit-picking--these are essential differences between Protestants and Catholics which the New Church glosses over in an exaggerated attempt at ecumenism. This is why traditionalists firmly believe the Novus Ordo is not only deficient, but dangerous to the faith.

The Council of Trent teaches that Christ Himself is truly Present after the Consecration and that the Sacred Host is immolated and offered up to the Father in sacrifice. Since this is truly Christ Himself, and not just a symbolic presence as Protestants believe, the offering is a true reenactment of the Cross of Calvery, an unbloody sacrifice:

"And inasmuch as in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the mass is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner the same Christ who once offered Himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, the holy council teaches that this is truly propitiatory and has this effect, that if we, contrite and penitent, with sincere heart and upright faith, with fear and reverence, draw nigh to God, we obtain mercy and find grace in seasonable aid. For, appeased by this sacrifice, the Lord grants the grace and gift of penitence and pardons even the gravest crimes and sins. For THE VICTIM IS ONE AND THE SAME, the same NOW offering by the ministry of priests who then offered Himself on the cross, the MANNER ALONE OF OFFERING BEING DIFFERENT. The fruits of that bloody sacrifice, it is well understood, are received most abundantly through this unbloody one, so far is the latter from derogating in any way from the former. Wherefore, according to the tradition of the Apostles, it is rightly offered not only for the sins, punishments, satisfactions and other necessities of the faithful who are living, but also for those departed in Christ but not yet fully purified." (Council of Trent, 22nd Session)

Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence. Christ's presence is virtual only, in the assembly and in the Scripture readings--precisely the emphasis given in the Novus Ordo. The Protestant ritual is a memorial meal, a commemoration of Christ's sacrifice, a looking-back on what happened two thousand years ago once and for all. Nothing is immolated. There is, in fact, no altar of immolation, no priesthood to do the immolating, no sacrifice per se. In imitation of this, the Novus Ordo calls the priest a "presider" and emphasizes the virtual presence of Christ--ignoring His Real Presence, suppressing, in fact, this central Catholic dogma.

You claim the sacrificial structure has not been destroyed. But Bugnini started where Luther began--by tossing out the Offertory and substituting a prayer of thanks. There is no Offertory in the new Mass--none, zilch. The "Presentation of the gifts" make no allusion to our sinfulness or to the nature of the sacrifice.

As for your being "a smart guy"--I don't think so. You apparently don't understand the fundamental meanings behind the Mass which all traditional Catholics commonly appreciate. You assume the Novus Ordo is Catholic--since you've been brought up to believe it is. But it is theologically Protestant--and just barely valid as a Mass. It supports none of the ancient teachings about the Real Presence, about His unbloody sacrifice, about the need for propitiation for our sins. These are fundamental Catholic doctrines--which you seem to think are "rants" or "pet theories" on my part, rather than the perennial teachings of the Church. You need to read the Council of Trent.

"For THE VICTIM IS ONE AND THE SAME, the same NOW offering by the ministry of priests who then offered Himself on the cross, the MANNER ALONE OF OFFERING BEING DIFFERENT. The fruits of that bloody sacrifice, it is well understood, are received most abundantly through this unbloody one, so far is the latter from derogating in any way from the former."

Ultima, this is where you totally lose any credibility for your case, or any suspicion that you may be vaguely in touch with reality.

Every orthodox N.O. Catholic will totally agree with the teaching of the Council of Trent on the Sacrifice of the Mass and the real Presence. They also see these doctrines upheld by the N.O. liturgy when it is celebrated in accordance with the rubrics.

Personally I agree that the 1962 Missal emphasises these aspects of the Mass better, but to claim that they are non-existent in the new rite is sheer bloody-mindedness and is the kind of bigotry that turns people off traditionalists completely.

The Council of Trent teaches that Christ Himself is truly Present after the Consecration and that the Sacred Host is immolated and offered up to the Father in sacrifice. Since this is truly Christ Himself, and not just a symbolic presence as Protestants believe, the offering is a true reenactment of the Cross of Calvery, an unbloody sacrifice:

Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence. Christ's presence is virtual only, in the assembly and in the Scripture readings--precisely the emphasis given in the Novus Ordo. The Protestant ritual is a memorial meal, a commemoration of Christ's sacrifice, a looking-back on what happened two thousand years ago once and for all. Nothing is immolated. There is, in fact, no altar of immolation, no priesthood to do the immolating, no sacrifice per se.

Duh. I know all this. I am as Catholic as you purport to be. Stop the lecturing and get on with the evidence for the assertions you make.

In imitation of this, the Novus Ordo calls the priest a "presider" and emphasizes the virtual presence of Christ--ignoring His Real Presence, suppressing, in fact, this central Catholic dogma. You claim the sacrificial structure has not been destroyed. But Bugnini started where Luther began--by tossing out the Offertory and substituting a prayer of thanks. There is no Offertory in the new Mass--none, zilch. The "Presentation of the gifts" make no allusion to our sinfulness or to the nature of the sacrifice.

Blind assertion. Are you so into your dogma that you can't see that you are only parroting things and are providing no compelling argument?

As for your being "a smart guy"--I don't think so. You apparently don't understand the fundamental meanings behind the Mass which all traditional Catholics commonly appreciate. You assume the Novus Ordo is Catholic--since you've been brought up to believe it is. But it is theologically Protestant--and just barely valid as a Mass. It supports none of the ancient teachings about the Real Presence, about His unbloody sacrifice, about the need for propitiation for our sins.

More assertion.

These are fundamental Catholic doctrines--which you seem to think are "rants" or "pet theories" on my part, rather than the perennial teachings of the Church. You need to read the Council of Trent.

What if I read Trent and don't agree with you? Maybe you need to understand that your rants are not arguments.

OK, you like the Latin Mass. You think it does a better job explaining teachings. More power to you.

But to attack the NO Mass just because you don't like it is why you marginalize yourself. I get all of Catholic theology from the NO Mass, without being told 12 times. And it drives you crazy.

You keep lecturing me on Catholic belief, cause your paradigm is shattered. Your arguments are only effedtive against the ignorant NO Catholic. In this manner you are no better than the Protestants who steal our ignorant sheep.