Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone? [A Month Later]

drstevej

[drstevej]

Thread from last month...

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Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone?
drstevej

Posted on 04/08/2003 12:29 PM CDT by drstevej

OBSERVATIONS:

[1] There seems to be a significantly reduced number of Protestant Threads (KJV Only being the exception for sure) in the FR Religion Forum.

[2] There seems to be a reduced number of FR Protestant posts in the Religion Forum.

This thread is a place to discuss these observations.

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Now the transformation to a Catholic Religion Forum is almost complete. Must be a Marian miracle or an answer to Jim Robinson's prayer, "Can't we all just get along?" Now all the dissent is within the RC fold ... NO Mass vs. Tridentine Mass. Boredom has descended, the moderators are free to nap without fear of an **** awakening them.

Could someone arrange for a funeral mass? (a clown mass in this case might be in order).

 

-- Pope Piel  I (thinking of abdicating prior to even assuming the Chair of Peter)

[drstevej]

FR is hardly Belfast (with a few exceptions).

I respect my fellow Catholics here and have fun while discussing important differences we have. The differences are not trivial and should be thoroughly debated .. for our instruction and for the instruction of lurkers.

I just wish we had a broader spectrum of participants to give us more issues to discuss. I appreciate your joining the discussion.

[Desdemona]

Shouldn't the sucessors of Peter be able to do a walk on water service? [note to self... wear white flotation vest under papal robes]

What? You can't egg-beater and talk at the same time? What kind of successor to St. Peter are you?

[Desdemona]

I'm also a Midnight Mass purist.

[sinkspur]

I'm also a Midnight Mass purist.

Protestants go to Midnight Mass.

Real Catholics have already been to Mass by then, and have a buzz on.

[drstevej]

Browning Synrgy Float Tube

 

Browning Synrgy Float Tube   This Browning Float Tube positions you higher in the water so you can kick and cast with exceptional ease.

I am looking for one of these in white!

[Desdemona]

Okay, the buzz I'll give you.

[jt8d]

Is there some confusion here over which heretic did what? I thought that it was Jean Calvin who did all these things--not Luther. I was given to understand that although Martin Luther was a heresiarch, he did not advocate "destroying the Holy Mass"--such was whole-heartedly accomplished by Calvin and Zwingili, who both despised the Church. Do we not often refer to the desecration of the Sacred Altars as being turned into "Calvin's Table?"

[ultima ratio]

Ah, but you took my figurative language literally. Your point was, from the first, a literal one: Christ can't be physically in two places at the same time--though you don't deny he can be virtually present everywhere. My rejoinder was: he can. Of course it makes no sense--but neither does the Trinity or his own Divinity. Some things we believe because the Church has always taught this, from very ancient times.

[drstevej]

***Ah, but you took my figurative language literally.***

Note the irony of a Catholic telling a Protestant this!

[jt8d]

Yes, a "different terminology" indeed. Hitler and Stalin used the same crypto tactic. Change the meaning of words, insidiously on a gradual basis. Change the language, or whatever the course may be; but be shrewd in the act, so that each successive generation is borne into the newly-evolved variant--and thus, never knowing what divergence from the norm has occurred. One may never become wise to history, if the context is obscured.

Rememember: We are not killing the____(insert significant group here) This is not "genocide," it is "relocation"--the "final solution," etc. Abortion is not murder; but rather, it is "freedom of choice," and "reproductive rights," etc. Funny thing, terminology.

[ultima ratio]

No, it was Luther who began the changes I cited. He consciously denied the Propitiatory action of the Mass as well as the Real Presence. He eliminated the Offertory, insisted the minister face the congregation, made the altar a table, introduced Communion in the hands, and eliminated all outward expressions of veneration.

[drstevej]

Luther's consubstantiation did retain much of the Real Presence while denying the sacrificial nature of the presence. He parted company with Zwingli over "hoc est meum corpum" being literal. In this, he's one of yours.

Carlstadt was the real radical and Luther restrained him from making more drastic changes.

[drstevej]

Question: When did Luther institute communion in both kinds and why did he delay?

[St.Chuck]

Won't you be surprised when I become Pope.

I'm certain you don't know the secret handshake, and since that is a prerequisite for any clerical position, your popedom is unlikely. Are you Italian by any chance?

What I was referring to was that those who call themselves protestants might be fewer in number, but the protesting goes on and on.

[ultima ratio]

Ah! --and the irony of a Protestant being so darned literal!

[B-Chan]

Well said! You are precisely correct: rebellion and regicide are ever the hallmarks of the Evil One. However, both may be forgiven through the Redemption purchased for us by God the Son -- if only we humble ourselves and accept it!

I'd be interested in reading that dissertation of yours. Care to post it?

[drstevej]

***I'm certain you don't know the secret handshake***

I know the Mormon secret handshake and they claim to have Peter's keys....

***Are you Italian by any chance?***

That's not a requirement. JPII is Polish and Peter was Jewish. Bout time a southern, married WASP was selected.

***but the protesting goes on and on. ***

Yeah, what's up with all the squabbling among my RC friends here. We Protestants are s'posed to be the one with many views. I'm getting lost as to whether Daylight Savings time makes a midnight mass illicit. And the thought that all NO RCs are Protestants sends be scurrying for my dictionary of Church history looking for the letter "P" (I must have missed something).

[jt8d]

Ultima Ratio:

Sir, you are waisting your breath, with this bunch, for they are being "invincibly ignorant" of the obvious. You and I--and several others here, both understand the proper context of Vatican II, and how ambivolent language was purposefully inserted into the counciliar documents. Many here are attempting to muddy the waters and play semantics.

Original intent is made obvious by the actions that follow immediately after a law is made operative. In other words, if there were some confusion of the methods to be used for the newly "instituted" rite, then such "misunderstandings" would have been clarified by Rome immediately--or, at the very latest, within one generation of the so-called reforms established by the Council. This was not the case, and the radical changes inflicted upon the Holy Mass were made in rapid succession. These were not "abuses;" but rather the planned outcome. "Well-intentioned reforms" do not transform overnight into "abuses," unless there is clear intent to abuse--such intent was made implicit through the ambiguities written throughout the conciliar text. To suggest otherwise is to pratice intellectual dishonesty.

[St.Chuck]

I'm getting lost as to whether Daylight Savings time makes a midnight mass illicit.

Lost? Well, don't follow the directions of those studying the clock so intently. They're lost too. And the only key the Mormons have are the ones the choir sings in.

[B-Chan]

So, the American colonialists war to break free from King George was a "rebellion against God"?

Yes. Romans 13:1-7 makes that clear:

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. [RSV]

There it is, straight from the Apostle's pen: Christians are forbidden from any rebellion against lawful authority, and specifically are forbidden to withhold their taxes. You'll notice that no distinction is made between "good" government and "bad": St. Paul says specifically that all authority on this Earth, even real bad guys like Rameses, Cyrus, Nero, Barbarossa, Saladin, Genghiz Khan, Cromwell, Stalin, Hitler, and even poor old George III of Hanover, was and is instituted by God for His own purposes. Some governments are given power by God diirectly; others are allowed by Him to seize power as a test for the faithful. In any case, Christians are required to be sober, peaceful, and law-abiding citizens. The only thing a government cannot require a Christian to do is to act in a manner contrary to the law of God; in such cases, the Christian is required to simply refuse, not to rebel, even if that refusal requires the believer to suffer the full penalty of law: the Christian must choose the Coliseum rather than render unto Caesar what belongs only to God.

Neither Christ nor his Apostles ever endorsed any kind of rebellion, revolution, or tea party against the corrupt, pagan Roman Empire; how, then, can we?

Vatican II was a "rebellion against God"?

No.

Like Buchanan voters and Libertarians, there's a reason monarchists are considered fringe.

What's wrong with being "fringe"? Right is right and wrong is wrong; if Right happens not to be popular at a given point in time, that fact doesn't make it any less Right. Christianity itself was once a fringe movement, after all.

Most people cannot bear the thought of submitting their own precious wills to any authority other than their own nerve endings. That sort of prideful ersatz "freedom" is at the root of the problems facing the Church (and humanity as a whole) today.Christ calls us to be His children and sheep, not to stand on our own or run with the wolves. Only by becoming subjects of our Heavenly King and those He has placed in power over us on Earth can we ever know real liberty.