Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone? [A Month Later]

drstevej

[Polycarp]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an integrist?

Definition of "Integrist" (Extreme Traditionalist)

TCR Note: Since some have inquired about the terms "Integrist" / "Integralist" (the term used by Cardinal Ratzinger to describe SSPX and similar errors, see The Ratzinger Report) we thought it would be helpful to share the following historical sketch from a correspondence several years ago.

Quick definition: Integrism is that form of both historical and theological error, and sometime outright rebellion / schism, which confuses the substance and accidents of faith and considers them both to be "Integral" to the Faith.

"The term "integrism" was coined during the pontificate of Pius X and his successor after the former condemned modernism. As it is customary, after such a condemnation, some zealots begin to see 'modernists' under every stone. An organization headed by Msgr. Begnini (not Bugnini or Benelli!) called "La Sapinière" from the name of their headquarters started a witchhunt and went to denounce as modernists perfectly orthodox theologians or scripture scholars.

[conservonator]

Definition of "Integrist"

[drstevej]

***St. Francis de Sales ***

Wasn't aware that St. Fancis worked in the Sales Department

Thanks for the quote & the guilt trip from reading it.

[nickcarraway]

Is favoring the Novus Ordo "not conservative liturgically"? I thought following a liturgy approved by the Church was conservative.

I knew someone could challenge me on that point, but I thought that was the most expedient way to put it. If I called you the conservative and them the liberals no one would've understood me.

[nickcarraway]

But don't you ever get tired of the attitude of a paper that considers Hillary Clinton an ultra-right winger?

[SoothingDave]

Thanks for the quote & the guilt trip from reading it.

Hey. It's what we do. :-)

SD

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

I agree with you, I will cast myself in the people who don't have a serious problem with the Novus Ordo.

With that said, I will issue a Caveat, it has to be done reverentially, at least kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer (Consecration), quiet reflection after communion (if they want to do the meditation song, quite reflection after that), wouldn't mind kneeling during the "Lord Have Mercy, Christ Have Mercy" but that's just me.

I also do love the Tridetine Mass, don't know if I could handle it everyday though.

There, I said it, and I still consider myself a Traditionalist.

God Bless

[Domestic Church]

"You're a traditionalist, Doctor. You will attend a Tridentine Mass over a Novus Ordo, if given the choice. That's what I'm saying."

For clarification purposes, what is a person who only attends a Tridentine Mass? (I thought that was the traditionalist.) What about one who would only attend a licit latin Mass over a non licit one? What is a person who has attended licit Novus Ordo Masses for over 30 years but has a desire to touch base with the Mass of childhood and First Sacraments? Why does tradition have to carry such undertones for you? I am grateful to be at any licit Mass these days as the future looks bleak and the present has such sordid newstories...and perhaps that makes many harken back.

[malakhi]

Thanks for the quote & the guilt trip from reading it.

Hey. It's what we do. :-)

Sigh. More supercessionism. ;o)

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Dr. Steve (Pope Piel), please stick around, I know I don't post much, but I enjoy it whenever you interject something into the conversation. By the way, there was a lot of Protestant action I think on the How Old is Your Church thread.

God Bless

[Domestic Church]

Please elaborate on the black Pope bit.

[sinkspur]

But don't you ever get tired of the attitude of a paper that considers Hillary Clinton an ultra-right winger?

I don't read the editorials, I don't read Rosemary Reuther, I don't read Richard McBrien, I don't read Thomas Gumbleton, I don't read Joan Chittester.

Why? Because they're always bitching about the Church. Griping, complaining, bellyaching about the Pope, about their (mostly liberal) bishops, and about how tough things have been for them when they don't have a clue about how the rest of us live.

I love the Church; I love the Mass; and I agree with the Pope about things I need to agree with the Pope on (his opinions about war and capital punishment are something else, altogether).

But, the NCR is the left equivalent of the WANDERER, which also has its share of columnists who gripe about the Church, from a different perspective.

[drstevej]

Thanks. The only reason I became Pope is so I will fit in better here on FR (and because I look good in white).

[sinkspur]

Why does tradition have to carry such undertones for you?

It only carries dark undertones when it is used to beat down those who happen to have no problem with the Novus Ordo.

I'm in favor of a multiplicity of choices. Our parish has a Tongan Mass, a Hispanic Mass, a Vietnamese Mass, a quiet Mass, a Youth Mass.

A Tridentine Mass means some other group of Catholics is provided the means to worship God in the way they desire.

Bring it on.

[Antoninus]

As far as I can tell, St. Chuck and I are the only ones who argue consistently for the vernacular Novus Ordo, celebrated according to the GIRM.

Your point? Perhaps it's because your side of the argument is now out on the fringe (and getting fringier all the time).

I attend a NO mass most of the time. I'm not in any sense a "radical" when it comes to the liturgy. However, since I attended my first Tridentine mass a couple years ago, I have come to find it, on the whole, superior to the NO mass. I judge this or something similar to be the feeling of most of us Catholics here on FR. If that makes us "radical trads" in your mind, then so be it. As far as I can tell, you are one of the few people who consistently shows disdain for the Latin mass and uses someone's attachment to it as the basis for accusations of sedevacantism, schism, etc.

Face it, sinky, you're clinging to something that's slowly but surely being made obsolete. I know it grates on you. After all, the young Turks of the 1960s and 70s were supposed to change and reform the Church--not be rejected as a cheesy failure by a new generation 30 years later.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Pope Piel I (thinking of abdicating prior to even assuming the Chair of Peter)

As heiress to the papal throne under Piel, don't even think about it. I have plans.

[drstevej]

***As heiress to the papal throne under Piel, don't even think about it. I have plans.***

And a fine Cardinalette you will make. Keep on the good side of my wife and you will do well under Pope Piel's reign.

It will be a bit of a change to have a First Lady in the Vatican.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

*ahem*

Seriously, anyone is free to post anything they want on the religion forum. This doesn't appear to be a problem on the news forum so if people are unhappy with the threads they are more than welcome to change that. I don't like blaming other people for a few people's personal gripes (speaking in general here, not to anyone specifically). It's a victim mentality. If the N.O.s or Protestants aren't around then that is their problem to solve! No traditionalist censors this forum.

I haven't become involved in any heavy discussions lately because of personal restrictions. I've seen plenty of things to comment on, even the Protestant threads;-)

[Antoninus]

Ultima ratio and his crowd have been so successful that there are actually Catholics on this board who would attend a schismatic SSPX mass over a Novus Ordo mass.

Ultima Ratio gets slammed around considerably harder than you do (with good reason, if you ask me). And I don't see him having too many allies. To lump the rest of us in with his opinion is a tad intellectually dishonest, don't you think?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Keep on the good side of my wife and you will do well under Pope Piel's reign.

Ah yes, always make friends with the real power behind the scenes. Good advice;-)