Bishop: "Let chaos storm! When will it stop, change after change in liturgy? Never!"

Catholic Diocese of Dodge City ^ | Most Rev. Ronald M. Gilmore, Bishop of the Diocese of Dodge City

[ninenot]

Careful, here. Let's define this more carefully.

The apparent wish of Happy Gilmore, DD and Ordinary of Dodge, is that the poofter-litwonks will continue to "improve" the Mass' rubrics, formularies, prayers, and readings on a regular basis.

This wish is contrary to common sense. For to the extent the Mass is "ritual," it cannot be tinkered with, adjusted, and/or tweaked on a weekly, annual, or 10-year schedule--or it will not be Ritual.

You may, of course, have it either way. But don't refer to "ritual" if you mean "transient." And don't expect "transient" to represent the Permanent in the minds of the laity (or its priests.)

[ninenot]

Neither Ghost nor Spirit even comes close in English to "Pneumos," one of the better representations...

[ninenot]

You are certainly putting the best possible spin on Happy Gilmore's statement, indecipherable as it is.

Perhaps that's what he actually meant.

[Salvation]

**So, when my parish institutes "handwashing" on Holy Thursday
in place of the washing of the feet in the spirit of Vatican II, as one of my parishes truly did, I should rejoice that the Church is ever changing?**

That's not what I said. You are spinning here.

[k omalley]

Then what changes are you speaking of? So many of the changes in the liturgy were not authorized by the Vatican and its hard for the average Catholic to keep track of what is authorized and what is not. Even now there is a disagreement between the American bishops and the Vatican. The bishops said that we must stand to receive Communion or we are being disobedient. The Vatican counters with the statement that the faithful may kneel if they so desire and cannot be told that they are disobedient. All these changes keep the faithful in a state of confusion and the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.

[Salvation]

**Pneumos**

I'm not familiar with this word.

Educate me, please!

[Salvation]

I agree there is disagreement between the American Bishops and Rome. We can communicate what we think is important to our priests and bishops. That is the only way we will return to reverence during the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

[drstevej]

Actually the greek word is pneuma and can have a range of meaning:

pneÂma tov n Spirit (of God); spirit, inner life, self; disposition, state of mind; spirit, spirit being or power, power (often of evil spirits); life (‡f°jmi tè p. die Mt 27.50); wind (He 1.7; perhaps Jn 3.8); breath (2 Th 2.8); ghost, apparition (Lk 24.37, 39)

[Loyalist]

Pneumos is the Greek word for spirit, which also means wind or breath. Pneumatic (related to air/run or using compressed air) is derived from it, as is pneu, the French word for tire.

[Longshanks]

This is arch-heretic Cardinal Mahony visiting Bp. Gilmore earlier this year. Birds of a feather flock together.

[Salvation]

I like it! Especially since the Holy Spirit is often portrayed as breathing or a wind.

[Polycarp]

Sinkspur,

If you do not want me pinging you any more, tell me up front. You don't need to run to the mods regarding my posts.

That said, this is all very disturbing. I had not previously put these pieces together. How can one argue that they only criticize administrative decisions of the Pope, yet on the other hand explicitly state the Pope is in mortal sin? I'm thinking my own earlier criticisms, for which I received ad hominem attack far out of proportion to my own expressed opinions regarding Sink, were not so far off the mark afterall.

Note that since Sinkspur went running to mommy crying about criticism and requested that I no longer ping him, I will not ping him

I missed this earlier. Thanks for the clarification.

but I won't stop reminding everyone of his behavior, his refusal to back up the claim that Delaney "dealt with" Father Fudgie, his "old pal" from Rhode Island or the fact that Sinkspur is a sorry example of a Catholic deacon with his knee-jerk attacks on the pope.

---

To: Polycarp

Polycarp,sinkspur has said on this forum that our Holy Father knew of men who hurt young people and did not help them,A Catholic would not beleive that.Ban me if you want,I saw what he posted.What he is saying is Our Holy Father is in mortal sin.

238 posted on 05/12/2003 12:39 AM EDT by fatima (Go Karen,Look at all these's prayers.For all our troops,we love you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 214 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

---

To: fatima; sinkspur

Ban me if you want,I saw what he posted.What he is saying is Our Holy Father is in mortal sin.

Regardless of any differences I may have with Sink, I must correct you here and defend him. Sinkspur would never imply our Holy Father is guilty of mortal sin.

(And I have no power to ban you.)

239 posted on 05/12/2003 10:04 AM EDT by Polycarp ("When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 238 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

---

To: fatima

Polycarp,sinkspur has said on this forum that our Holy Father knew of men who hurt young people and did not help them.

Did the Pope know, in the 80's and 90's, that priests were abusing young men?

It was not me who said he did. Fr. Thomas Doyle, who was secretary to the Conference of Bishops said he documented many cases (including one of a man I went to seminary with, Robert Peebles) to Rome.

I'll leave it to you to decide whether you believe the Pope didn't know that this stuff was going on. Hell, I knew it was going on, and I'm nobody.

240 posted on 05/12/2003 10:52 AM EDT by sinkspur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 238 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

---

To: sinkspur

I'll leave it to you to decide whether you believe the Pope didn't know that this stuff was going on.

Are you then saying that you DO think JPII is guilty of mortal sin?

Or that he might have known, and rightfully expected the NCCB to handle it?

Or what exactly?

241 posted on 05/12/2003 2:07 PM EDT by Polycarp ("When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 240 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

[sinkspur]

yet on the other hand explicitly state the Pope is in mortal sin.

Where did I explicitly state that?

You're still spoiling for a fight, aren't you?

[sinkspur]

If you do not want me pinging you any more, tell me up front. You don't need to run to the mods regarding my posts.

I also never did this, Brian.

What's the matter with you?

[huskyboy]

Individual bishops have authority to make changes in addition to those mandated by the GIRM. For example, while there is nothing in the GIRM concerning where to place your hands during the Lord’s Prayer, Cardinal John Mahoney of Los Angeles requires that congregants do not hold hands, but instead raise them in the air, palms upward.

Is this true? Did the 1975 mandate (?) sanction us standing until every one has received???

And this is something I wonder about as well... where did the handholding and palms held up and out during the Our Father come from?

Maybe Mahoney is a charismatic.

This is scary, folks. When they removed the kneelers, people did not rise up. When they removed the altar and hid the tabernacle, people did not rise up. When people were being refused Communion (well, I don't know what else to call it for a non-Mass like the novus ordo), some people protested, but not much happened. Not many said much apparently when a simulated service featured women attempting to (and I do say, "attempting to") consecrate bread and wine.

Now, this is where we can make the connection with the heresy of modernism. The modernists say that the service (and consequently, the faith) should change with the times. . . keepin' it real and up to date, so to speak. On other hand, traditionalists believe and know that because Mass and the Catholic faith came from God, neither can be changed.

[ninenot]

Pinging TT for his Eastern smarts.

Pneumos is Greek for 'breath,' and all that 'breathing upon' stuff in the Gospels has to do with THIS. Without breath, there is no life. This 'pneumos' thing is also represented by the wind on Pentecost.

BTW, it's also one of the theological arguments used in favor of the pipe organ (as opposed to the electronic toaster models.) Pipe organs use 'pneumos,' just like your voice does--and the pipe organ represents "all" that is alive and breathing, praising God. All Living Things: the pipe organ. THAT is why at one time, the pipe organ was played sotto voce during the singing of the Our Father at Mass.

At any rate, this "breath/wind" representation gives a clearer picture of the function of the Third Person--as opposed to Ghost or Spirit.

[ninenot]

Cardinal Mahony visiting Bp. Gilmore

Trying to figure out how to put Mother Angelica's EWTN out of business...

[ninenot]

Ah, as much as Sinky and I disagree (about 85% of the time,) and as much as he has castigated JPII, he would not state clearly, nor imply, the state of JPII's soul.

That sort of judgment is a REAL big one, and most of us here know we ought not make it.

[Polycarp]

Where did I explicitly state that?

I don't know...maybe I misunderstood fatima's post.

Do you think JPII committed mortal sin in this regard?

[Polycarp]

as much as he has castigated JPII, he would not state clearly, nor imply, the state of JPII's soul.

Good, I believe (and still hope) that is the case. I was simply asking for clarification on the other thread, and not receiving it there, reposted the exchange on this one. I truly found it puzzling that fatima's error was not immediately corrected on the other thread, since it apparently was a fairly serious error.