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To: vrwc1
These arguments are fundamentally wrong-headed.

"Question: Are the Scriptures sufficient by themselves to lead us to the salvation which is in Christ?"

Wrong question. The object is to get as many souls as possible to heaven, not to scrape by with what is merely "sufficient." Anything that might be of any slightest aid to even one soul should be embraced (unless, of course, it has other, harmful consequences--which Catholic tradition does not).

"We believe they are and anything more is contrary to New Testament teaching."

Another poster has already presented scriptural validation for oral teaching, from the New Testament. How could anyone believe that God would deny his children something that could save their souls?

"Question: Do we need other sources of authority for what we do in the practice of religion?"

Again, this is the wrong question.

How can anyone say what a given person "needs" to lead him to God? This person is making a judgment: "Oh, that might be helpful, but you don't need it so you can't have it." That is as contrary to what I know of God's nature as anything I can think of.

Saul of Tarsus needed direct contact with Our Lord. But this guy is going to tell humanity that nobody "needs" anything more than the Bible?

My daughter needed the loving example of the Sisters and the Christian environment of their school. But this guy is going to tell her that the Bible should have been enough?

Down the centuries, many, many souls have been brought to God in part by the "unneeded" trappings of the Catholic Church--the Cathedrals, the Rosary, the Art, the Music, the pagentry of the Liturgy, the magnificent intellectual work-product of Augustine, Aquinas, and a host of others--and by the stories of the Saints and Martyrs, passed down extra-Biblically.

But I guess since we don't "need" them we shouldn't have them.

I find that religious art, sacred music, and incense can help me attain a properly reverent frame of mind for prayer.

But I guess since I don't "need" these things, I shouldn't have them--even though they're conducive to a better prayer life.

"We do not believe so"

What a barren, colorless vista is reflected in this fellow's views. There is much to be said for material austerity, but spiritual penury--scraping by on what is "sufficient" and excluding everything not thought "needed"--is not merely contrary, it is cruel.

I don't want just a part of revelation--I want to know *everything* that has been revealed, whether thousands of years ago or this afternoon.

When I hear something like this article, I want to shout, "God is bigger than that. God is kinder than that. God is more loving than that." He has given us a wealth of beauty--physical, spiritual, intellectual, and artistic--out of love for us. He has worked miracles through the Saints out of love for us. He has allowed the Virgin to comfort us and to warn us out of love for us.

But we fling this love back in His face. It is denied, excluded...we say we don't "need" it.

When I hear an atheist denying the Saints, denying the reality of miracles, denying the efficacy of prayer, I can understand that. They're wrong, but at least their position is consistent.

But when I hear a Christian saying that the Mother of Jesus would not pray to God that He have mercy on us, that the Saints would not pray for us (which would have to mean that men are severed from the Body of Christ at death), that God no longer blesses us with miracles, that Tradition should be discarded because we can scrape by with less...when I am confronted with this spiritual penury, which is really a rejection of a large portion of God's bounty, I am (to quote the BBC) "gobsmacked."
128 posted on 03/28/2003 3:30:06 AM PST by dsc
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To: dsc
Fides et ratio, baby!
129 posted on 03/28/2003 4:53:08 AM PST by Notwithstanding (Airborne 3d Infantry Division Dogface Soldier Vet - "Rock of the Marne!")
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To: dsc
You have setup a number of straw man arguments that really don't pertain to what was being talked about.

The crux of the matter is that any doctrine which is not in accordance with OT and NT scripture should be regarded as heresy. For instance, the rosary. Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:7-8 "But when ye pray, use not vain repititions as the heathen do for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." God seeks heartfelt, meaningful prayer from us, not simple repitition of a few words over and over again. Jesus' words make that clear, therefore saying the rosary is obviously something Jesus doesn't want people to do, and is therefore sinful to do.

I want to shout, "God is bigger than that. God is kinder than that. God is more loving than that." He has given us a wealth of beauty--physical, spiritual, intellectual, and artistic--out of love for us.

No argument there. Psalm 19:1 says "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows his handiwork." Even in a sinful and fallen world God's nature is revealed to man through his creation.

He has worked miracles through the Saints out of love for us. He has allowed the Virgin to comfort us and to warn us out of love for us.

Now you're getting into idolatry. It's like you said above: "God is bigger than that". My God, my Jesus is big enough to fulfill all my needs. He is the creator and sustainer of the universe. I worship him, and him alone. He and he alone provides all that I need, because he is big enough to do that. To pray to someone else is to slap God in the face, saying "I need to go to someone else with this prayer, because I can't get what I need from you." I don't need to worship or pray to anyone else - why should I, when God already provides me everything I could ever possibly need. Besides, he doesn't want me to pray to anyone else, for he is a jealous God, as he himself has said.

I pray that you may come to embrace the promise of Phillipians 4:19 - "But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." Not by Mary or any other "saint", but only by God and Jesus Christ. He is big enough to do that.

130 posted on 03/28/2003 8:51:02 AM PST by vrwc1
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