A Critical History of Islam

FoxGrape ^ | Mark Hines, M.A.

[BlackVeil]

Yes, books on the Essenes - it is a standing temptation for writers to become fanciful. Not that the original story isn't very strange in itself. I must admit that I enjoyed reading the novel Qumran by that French/Israeli author. It sort of had all the Israeli archaeologist gossip and speculation from the last fifty years, all put in together, LOL!

[Hank Kerchief]

(I hesitated to post this after rereading it. Sounds like an insipid Sunday School lesson. It is not intended that way, so here goes.)

The New Testament refers to TWO, not one, characters born without a father, but only one is adored as divine.

If you meant this literally, it is not quite correct. The passage you partially quoted refers to a passage from the Psalms:

Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

This passage and the one in Hebrews refer to the incident recorded in Genesis 14, where, after Abraham had saved the people and goods of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Zoar, as well as his brother Lot from Chedlorlaomer, Tidal, Amraphel, Arioch and Ellasar, who had taken them, "Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all." (Gen. 14:18-20)

Now, Melchisedec is never mentioned in Scripture before or after this incident, (except in Psalms and Hebrews, as already stated, and only in reference to this incident), and there is no record of his parentage, birth or death.

So, in the Hebrews passage, Melchisedec is used metaphorically, as a type of Christ, as Priest, King, and Eternal. It does not mean Melchisedec actually had no beginning, no parents, or never died, only that they are never recorded.

Heb. 6:20-7:3 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Hank

[Hank Kerchief]

(I hesitated to post this after rereading it. Sounds like an insipid Sunday School lesson. It is not intended that way, so here goes.)

The New Testament refers to TWO, not one, characters born without a father, but only one is adored as divine.

If you meant this literally, it is not quite correct. The passage you partially quoted refers to a passage from the Psalms:

Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

This passage and the one in Hebrews refer to the incident recorded in Genesis 14, where, after Abraham had saved the people and goods of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Zoar, as well as his brother Lot from Chedlorlaomer, Tidal, Amraphel, Arioch and Ellasar, who had taken them, "Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all." (Gen. 14:18-20)

Now, Melchisedec is never mentioned in Scripture before or after this incident, (except in Psalms and Hebrews, as already stated, and only in reference to this incident), and there is no record of his parentage, birth or death.

So, in the Hebrews passage, Melchisedec is used metaphorically, as a type of Christ, as Priest, King, and Eternal. It does not mean Melchisedec actually had no beginning, no parents, or never died, only that they are never recorded.

Heb. 6:20-7:3 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Hank

[GirlShortstop]

 
Thank you for the post xzins.   
After reviewing the points presented, I have to ask:  is it possible that the little mohammedan boys who bounce back and forth when reading their korans in the madrasas are doing so because they're stifling the urge to laugh their a$$es off?

[BlackVeil]

Thanks for your reply - and no, it doesn't sound like a Sunday school lesson. Or if it is, I rather am inclined to such discussions. I agree with most of your points - it would be absurd to deify Melchisadek on the basis of what is said in Scripture. But I pointed this out in order to emphasise what is, in my view, faulty reasoning in the article. i.e. the notion that anyone miraculously born without a father, must be God.

I disagree that Melchisadek did have a father and mother. St Paul's account supposes that he really had neither, because Paul says "see how great he was", for having no parents, nor end of his life. Paul would hardly think it wonderful to have parents who are not recorded. Likewise, it seems that Melchisadek, like some other figures in the Old Testament, is credited with endless life, presumably until the day of judgement.

I disagree with the statement in that article that no where in the Koran is God refered to as love. In fact, according to the Koran, that is one of the attributes of God,[Ya Wadud, the loving]. Also, the writer claims that there are only slight differences between manuscript versions of the Scriptures. Has he been asleep for years? Wow, he has missed out on all the heated arguments between Christian denominations about the composition of the Bible, and whether the Johanine comma etc., should be included or not.

[Hank Kerchief]

Thanks for the kind reply.

I agree with this:

I pointed this out in order to emphasise what is, in my view, faulty reasoning in the article. i.e. the notion that anyone miraculously born without a father, must be God.

Your basic point is obviously correct, but you did not have to use Melchisadek to prove it. Obviously neither Adam or Eve had an earthly father (or mother), and certainly were not God(s). It would place a limitation on God, I think, to suggest He could not bring human beings into this world in any way He chooses.

As for Melchisadek literally having neither Father or Mother (like Adam and Eve, but unlike Jesus, who did have a mother), the verse says: "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually." If we decide to take this literally, we must ask the question, where is Melchisadek today, and where is he practicing his priesthood? If we are to take this statement literally and at face value, we must treat the whole thing that way, or, otherwise, assume the whole thing has an allegorical or metaphorical meaning.

Unless you believe Melchisadek was translated, like Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus, if he has never died, and must still be in the world. I do not believe this could be hidden, especially if he were still a practicing priest. I am convinced Melchisadek has gone the way of all flesh, and that both the lack of birth and lack of death are meant as allegories.

As for: ...it seems that Melchisadek, like some other figures in the Old Testament, is credited with endless life, presumably until the day of judgement...

Since you mention the judgement, I cannot see how Melchisadek's,or any other Old Testament character's preservation, like Enoch or Elijah, is any different from anyone else's, except for the manner in which they left the world, a few "up," but most "down". The Gospels record that Abraham is alive and with God today, and other saints, both Old and New Testament are literally "living in heaven."

In this sense, no one ever dies, because everyone is preserved for judgement somewhere. If that is all that was meant by saying Melchisadek was without end of life, it would have no significance because it is true of everyone. In this world, end of life means end of life in this world, however you leave it.

Hank