[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

...there are things that God has revealed about Himself which...

You are missing the implication of this clause. If God has not revealed these things fallen man cannot by reason discover them. The individual is still dependent on God to provide revelation, even though it is apprehended through the process of reason.

[ksen]

Well if that's the case then reason is still dependent on Revelation. The definition I gave you said that Nat. Th. was based on reason APART from Revelation.

These people need to get their act together and come up with non-contradictory definitions.