[Desdemona]

From CG: <> Typical duplicity from a schismatic. He claims to submit to the Magisterium but he only agrees to submit if the Magisterium agress with his private judgement<>

From ultie: ...We accept the Magisterium--when it adheres to Tradition....

I'm not getting in the middle of this, but ultie, you just proved CG right.

[ultima ratio]

How have I proved him right? Do you believe we are obliged to obey absolutely everything coming out of Rome, even when it contradicts past teachings? I hardly think so. Rome has the obligation to show where it is in line with past Catholic doctrines whenever it introduces novelties. If it cannot do this, it must be disobeyed--especially in the present crisis. For example, it is making odd noises about the Jews not needing the same redemption as other men. This is novel--and found nowhere in either Scripture nor in Tradition. It must be rejected.

[Catholicguy]

<> Of course, you are right, Desdemona. It is proved every day on these threads. Schismatics have usurped Divinely-Constituted Authority. They decide for themselves, using "rational" means, what is and isn't "tradtion" and they will obey the Pope only to the extent the Pope agrees with them.

Of course, that is precisely the identical orientation to the Papacy the Protestant has. The Protestant will agree with the Pope - provided the Pope agrees with what the Protestant has determined using "rational" means. Sola Scriptura and Sola Traditio are the Twin Enfant Terribles of Jejune Private Judgement.

Both the Protestant Protestant and the Protestant Schismatic have made themselves the ultimate authority. "The Pope must agree with me" before I obey him is the, unspoken, standard of Judgement. The Self,Intellectual Pride, and Will ALL come before the Divinely-Constituted Authority of the Papacy.

How hard is it to "obey" and in what way is it commendable, or even Christian, if one only "obeys" what one agrees with? Can a child said to be obedient if he only obeys that with which he agrees?

Jesus, we are told, was "obedient" to His parents, yet, schismatics refuse their obedience to the Pope. Of course, that is not a fair comparison. Jesus was humble. Kids, now-a-days, know so much more than Dad does.

Obedience is illustrated when one "obeys" when the authority decides against his personal opinion.

All the other "explanations" and rationalisations and citing this and that Saint in opposition to Divinely-Constituted Authority are just the actions of spoiled children throwing tantrums while their endless quibbling, explicating, and cavilling over ancient Bulls and Documents represent efforts to Role Play they are Dad.

Mebbe, some day, they will grow-up and act like a Christian adult, but don't hold your breath. That is what they are doing - holding their breath, thinking themselves true blue, - and thinking their schismatic tantrums will be rewarded by having Dad hand them not only the Keys to the famiy car, but the Keys to the Kingdom.

Real, adult, Catholics know that won't happen. Dad has a Boss he will NOT disobey and the Boss has sent the Holy Spirit to help Dad deal with these unruly, self-willed children.

How long with Dad's patience last? The tantrum-throwers think forever... Mebbe, mebbe Dad's patience will last...but, how about the patience of Dad's Boss?

We shall see...<>