The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 1

The Institutes of the Christian Religion ^ | 1500's | John Calvin

[editor-surveyor]

"What is Jesus telling those that do not believe?"

Something that they already knew, I suspect........ :o)

[gal220]

Do you think they knew that they didn't belong to the sheep? Do you think that they knew they didn't "believe?"

Do you think that they realized you don't get into the sheepfold by believing but that you believe BECAUSE you are his sheep?

Do you think? :)

[editor-surveyor]

They knew that they were not his, nor did they wish to be his. - They were far too enlightened to participate in such 'foolishness.' ;o)

[gal220]

Right, right, I think what you meant to say was that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil ----not enlightened. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light neither comes to the light because their deeds are evil. hmmmm don't cockroaches run for cover when you shine the light on them? (I wouldn't know personally)

[RnMomof7]

I once worked in a roach infected building..at lunch time another woman and I decided to hae tea and toast..we got the toster down , put the bread in and pushed down the handle..a millon cockroaches ran out and scrambled for cover..I stood there and screamed..(I had never seen one before let along a million)

In the south they are common ..but not here in Buffalo..(In Fla I say one that was 3 inches long..I love Buffalo:>)

They do hate the light..but tellingly if they "get used to it" they will stand in it even though it is not natural to them ..like lots of unsaved church goers..me thinks...

[the_doc]

Ditto that.

[editor-surveyor]

" I think what you meant to say was that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil ----not enlightened.

If you really pay attention, you'll find that all that is presented to us as 'enlightenment' by the media, or schools is deep darkness.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

all that is presented to us as "Enlightenment"...is deep darkness.

I've always found that paradox interesting. Lucifer means Lightbearer in Latin; and the Age of Enlightenment was really the ascent of secret societies.

And yet Christ gave sight to the blind. Perhaps "light" and "sight" are different, analogy-wise.

[Corin Stormhands]

There is no ability until it is given. It is God given ability.

But I agree with ksen that Total Depravity and Total Inability are not the same thing.

The question would be when He gives it, and to whom. I would understand Calvin to teach He only gives that ability to some.

[gal220]

obviously :)

[gal220]

The Word of God teaches that God gives it to the elect. He does not give it to those he does not intend to save and a lot of Christians do not like that because they say it puts God in a realm of picking and choosing. But you can't look at it that way. If you believe Total Depravity, then man is completely unable to do or exercise any faith or step toward Christ in himself, ie. we are all condemned and on our way to hell because we are all by nature God-haters and will never choose him, so, if the sovereign Lord has determined to save some out of the whole in order that as Ephes 2:7 says, that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus, are we as creatures in a position to tell the Creator what He can do? Once I really understood the condition of man, and his complete inability and complete lack of desire to move towards Jesus on his own, Election was not such a horrid doctrine.

[fortheDeclaration]

But I agree with ksen that Total Depravity and Total Inability are not the same thing.

Amen!

All men can respond to the Light of the Gospel if they will, but they choose the Darkness instead (Jn.3:19)

[RnMomof7]

All men can respond to the Light of the Gospel if they will, but they choose the Darkness instead (Jn.3:19)

That does not answer who will come does it? Why some come or anothers do not

This chapter of the Institutes is about the character of God and how we can not know ourselves untill we know Him..and how we can not know Him untill we know ourselves

....I think that might come under the heading of "revelation" of God to a man about who He is ...that is the whosoever..the one with eyes to see and ears to hear..

It is not a matter of who is in the right place at the right time or who is smarter or more holy...

[RnMomof7]

BTTT

[Dr. Eckleburg]

That does not answer who will come, does it? Why some come and others do not?

It's the same cement wall the Arminians keep banging their heads against.

If we are agreed that all men are fallen, then what is it that causes one person to "respond to the Light of the Gospel," and others to "choose the darkness," as FTD asked.

The Arminians would have us believe some men are capable of choosing God on their own; they're not quite as "fallen" as others. Like the ruling-class pigs in "Animal Farm," some animals are "more equal" than others.

But Calvin was a true egalitarian who wrote that only after we acknowledge all men to be fallen and utterly lost, can we begin to perceive the true and vast nature of God; that all salvation, like everything else, comes from He who created it.

[ksen]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

This verse says that man receives before God gives them power.

[Corin Stormhands]

The Arminians would have us believe some men are capable of choosing God on their own; they're not quite as "fallen" as others.

I believe that's a mischaracterization.

Arminians teach that God gives all men the ability to choose, but that not all do so. It has nothing to do with how fallen man is (we all are).

That's why "depravity" cannot equal "inability."

[gal220]

2 Cor 4:6 - For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, BECAUSE God from the beginning CHOSE you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He CALLED you by our gospel

2 Tim 1:8-9

BTW, You forgot to go onto vs 13 "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You receive, because God in his electing love, worked it in your FIRST. Just like when Jesus gave the invitation, come unto me all ye that are heavy laden...and I will give you rest...that call goes out to all, but only those whom God's Spirit has effectually worked in and granted repentence and faith to will respond. But unless you understand man's condition, you won't see that. You will continue to think there is something within us that enables us to move toward Christ (with a little help from the Spirit. wooing us) but, there isn't. Its all of God, so he gets ALL the glory.

[RnMomof7]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
This verse says that man receives before God gives them power.

I ~think ~we are running ahead of the institutes and not letting Calvin develop his theology..I believe it will be better to take each part or else we will never work it through in a academic way ..Did you want to look at it systematically?

BTW I believe Calvin did not emphasize  the limited atonement

One thought on John1..and your comment. Notice he did not give the power equally to be saved to everyone....but only to those that "received" Him.Jesus said you must be born again to see the kingdom..you can not receive what you can not see or comprehend..

We would say that John 1:12 is a fine calvinist verse:>)

Did you want to stay on topic?

[ksen]

Did you want to stay on topic?

If it's possible. Thanks for helping me wrangle this thread. Oh yeah, how 'bout them Bucs? ;^)