[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

This sounds suspiciously like Jonathan Edwards explanation of the fall of man in the Garden. Quoting from Miscellany 290: "If it be enquired how man came to sin, seeing he had no sinful inclinations in him, except God took away his grace from him that he had been wont to give him and so let him fall,"... It may interest you to know that Edwards was never able to extricate himself from the quagmire that he got stuck in, and never could answer the objections. This is where the Arminian Free-will Predestination ends up, denying the same responsibility of man for his choice that it affirms, hence, a contradiction.

I think that we may need to separate the Ideas of Innocence and Perfection. Believe it, or not.

There is a developing Orthodox Presbyterian argument... not really so much an argument as a theological investigation... that Adam's WORSHIP of God Logos-Theophany (the Word in his midst, as opposed to the Word Incarnate in the flesh of Mary sometime later) in the Garden was INNOCENT of the actually-forbidden Sin of Commission regarding the Fruit of Trial, but was nonetheless even then not PERFECT in the sense of perfect Worship, as later exemplified by the Christ.

• The "exhaustive excavation" of this Argument entails an incredibly detailed study of the precise character of Worship, and Adam's possible deficiencies therein. It is a far more involved study than I am currently competent to examine (especially at this late hour), and without giving my OP friends too much credit I have a sneaking suspicion that my fellow OP "investigators" would benefit from a reading of "the_doc"s exposition of Romans 1 (unfortunately I have lost my Email copy, doc... hint, hint)

• However, in the absence of a duly-exhaustive study of the Character of Worship, I will offer the following Proof-Text to give a rudimentary sense of the Argument:
  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

  This is NOT what God said!! But from whom did Eve hear this Teaching? She did not hear it from God. She did not hear it from the Serpent. She heard it from Adam.

If Eve heard this Teaching from Adam, then it may very possibly mean that....

• Even when Adam was INNOCENT of the Forbidden Transgression...
• Even before Adam himself chose to actualize the Curse-Bringing Sin of Commission regarding the Fruit of Trial...

Adam himself had already engaged in a form of "worship" which was NOT PERFECT. For as God has later declared to the Sons of Adam (and the Law of the Lord is Perfect):

These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more.

But if Adam was permitted to engage in a form of "worship" which God foreknew to be Imperfect, thereby setting the stage for Eve's transgression ("I have touched, yet I do not die", perhaps??), whereas the Christ performed the Worship of God perfectly...

Then this implies a conclusion which few but Calvinists are willing to contemplate:

• From before Creation, The Second Adam Jesus was intended to Succeed...
• In precisely that which, before Creation, The First Adam was intended to Fail.

It's a deep, knotty subject.
It is hard, and thick, and (almost, I think) inquires where angels fear to tread.
I know no other way with which to speak thereof.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

However, in the absence of a duly-exhaustive study of the Character of Worship, I will offer the following Proof-Text to give a rudimentary sense of the Argument:

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

This is NOT what God said!! But from whom did Eve hear this Teaching? She did not hear it from God. She did not hear it from the Serpent. She heard it from Adam.

Well, i must first tell you that due to the lateness of the hour, and prior sleep-deprovation, my higher faculties (such as they exist!), are not capable of a discussion of the logic of either one of our respective points...perhaps later? That aside, the only flaw that i can see in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church investigation is that they are presuming that God gave no such instruction. It is however, factual that the scriptures do not record such instruction.

It is, as the topic of immediate imputation an argument from silence. It also seems inconsistent with the idea of the woman first being decieved in I Timothy.

As i have said above, i simply cannot reason it out at this time, but the investigation does sound interesting. Keep me appraised on developments ok?

i'm going to wimp out and call it a night, so see you later

[ponyespresso]

This is NOT what God said!! But from whom did Eve hear this Teaching? She did not hear it from God. She did not hear it from the Serpent. She heard it from Adam.

I'm sorry to intrude. I have been in luke mode for quite a while and am nervous to emerge for several reasons. But, quickly, I really do need to ask, where do you get that she heard this false teaching from Adam. Why couldn't she have came up with this idea herself?

pony

btw: I have been copying and pasting the entire "why do babies go to heaven thread" for further study (Mongo ain't that bright to digest it all in one viewing.) Good, good stuff, but I am loath to print it all out (500+ pages so far!) to really give my full attention to it. Someday...