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To: xJones
you will always be able to hunt down that transgression of yours for which you have now received this blow."

Something like this was suggested to me once, when I was a boy and resisting an unjust punishment. I do not believe that it can be true. More than that; I believe that this claim is positively evil, diabolical in the original and literal sense.

It is no more true to argue that men are sinless or that through suffering they're able to win their redemption than to turn these same arguements inside out in suggesting that all evils are deserved and therefore no man-dealt torment, howsoever malevolent, an injustice. The path to truth never passes through a lie.

If all evil is deserved, then every evildoer is an agent of justice. More than this, the very concept of innocence becomes impossible. Though it's likely that life in the gulags was sufficiently hellish to plant this notion in Kornfeld, only in hell is this possible, and only a diabolical mind would seek to propagate such a belief among the living.

In fact, the Church's teaching on suffering relies on its being frequently unjust: it is this suffering that, if accepted as a personal Calvary, causes us crucified in Christ. As Paul says (Coloss 1:24 ): Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.

Human suffering is an invitation to participate in the suffering of the innocent Victim, not a Christian karma by which accounts are settled and books balanced.

18 posted on 01/07/2003 8:34:29 PM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus; xzins; RnMomof7; MarMema
I believe this claim is positively evil.

While we disagree on a lot, not here.

The last person I heard insist individuals were "responsible" for all evils that befall them was Shirley Maclaine.

God is the creator of every moment in our lives; and the suffering therein is, as you say, an opportunity to be closer to the suffering of Christ.

C.S. Lewis in "The Problem of Pain" spoke to this also.

Hopefully, God's gift of conversion to Dr. Kornfeld advanced him beyond this gnostic idea of karma and into a fuller understanding of God's sovereignty in all things.

22 posted on 01/08/2003 12:35:18 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Romulus; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; RnMomof7; George W. Bush
You're taking it out of context and adding a great deal to it that is of your mind, and not from the post.
No one said that God brought the suffering, nor that it was karma.
The statement itself, standing alone, is consistent with ascetic thinking in Russia.

"Suffering cleanses the soul infected with the filth of sensual pleasure and detaches it completely from material things by showing it the penalty incurred as a result of its affection for them. This is why God in His justice allows the devil to afflict men with torments." -
St. Maximos the Confessor (+ 662)

"If you are not willing to repent through freely choosing to suffer, unsought sufferings will providentially be imposed on you." -
St. Thalassios (7th c.)

Here is a quote from the Orthodox Church of America website

"Jesus Christ shows us that human suffering has redeeming and sanctifying significance. It can be the means of finding God in the fallen world, the means of purification from carnal passions, the means of enlightenment and communion with God for everlasting life."

"The apostle Paul tells us that "the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us" (Romans 8:18). He says that our earthly sufferings are but the "slight momentary affliction" which "is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparision" (2 Corinthians 4:17)."
Those who suffer through sickness and disease with every virtue of Christ will receive "sufficient grace" from God to be strong in the Lord in their bodily weakness, and so direct their sufferings "not unto death" but to the "glory of God." (cf 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, John 11:4)

Suffering helps us to remember that this world is transient and unimportant. For whatever reason, it is clear that God allows a tremendous amount of suffering to take place around the world every day. Even if suffering is of demonic origin, to believe that God is almighty and all-powerful is to accept that God allows it. It is arrogant to question it, therefore, and the very essence of ascetic humility to place blame for your suffering upon yourself.

Pinging some friends to the discussion.

25 posted on 01/08/2003 4:41:51 PM PST by MarMema
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