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To: lockeliberty
Recently this debate is going on within Reformed circles. The old School as you point out was divided. There were two schools of apologetical thought that was formed out of this division. The first is called presuppositionalism, and was championed by Cornelius Van Till. The name is descriptive. One presumes the existence of God and that the bible is God's revelation to mankind. From that the apologia is brought out. i suspect that you can see the logical flaw...the entire premise is circular, assuming God to prove God, using the bible to prove the bible. This has been the majourity report of Reformed Christianity since old Princton split.

There is a "back to the future" revolution going on at the moment. A student of Van Till named John Gerstner and two students of his, RC Sproul, and Art Lindsley examined the argunents, and the history of the Classical (sometimes called evidential) apologetic, and have confronted the very basis of the Van Till apologetic. The results and formulation is outlined in the book CLASSICAL APOLOGETICS by the three authors mentioned above.

The classical method supposedly fell out of favour as a response to Immanuel Kant, who supposedly destroyed the traditional theological proofs in Critique of Pure Reason. yet no one at the time ever seemed to question whether or not Kant was wrong. Even from a Presuppositional standpoint the question remains: If The Psalmist is right in Psalm 19, and Paul is right in Romans 1, THEN KANT MUST BE WRONG. i see the presuppositional apologetic as an accomodation to the world spirit, and (with apologies to Dr. Van Till), a spirit of sloth on the part of the Christian community who was not willing to do the work to provide a rebuttal to the work of Kant.

Some never did cave in. As i pointed out in my last post, Edwards maintained a classical apologetic, i believe that Charles Hodge did also. I cannot speak for J Gresham Machen, or Donald Gray Barnhouse, but i know that a student of Barnhouse, a certain Walter Martin, was an evidentialist.

Kuyper and Berkof run into dangerous territory by suggesting that only the Christian community has all true knowlege of God, since it suggest that, contrary to Romans 1, man DOES have an excuse. i do agree that faith and reason have separate functions and boundaries.

i don't know if that was any help to you. i have offered only a cursury comment on the subject, as space and time and my knowlege of how to place a link to another site do not permit me to exhasustively, (if that were possible!) answer.
305 posted on 01/13/2003 11:03:38 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Well, if I'm not mistaken I believe those in Kuyper, Berkhof, and Van Til camp would reference Proverbs 9:10.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

This is a classical example of parrellism in Hebrew poetry. Yahweh, (The LORD or Jehovah), in the first part relates to God's immanence or our ability to comprehend God through nature. Qedoshim ,(The Holies or the Holy One), relates to God's transcendence or the absolute otherness of God.

I think the arguement that follows is that to even approach the Qedoshim side of God requires Faith. Also, it appears to me that evidentialism and presuppositionalism are not mutually exclusive. As you noted in a previous post for a tautology to be correct it must be proven outside the system. So, if we use an evidentialist approach to prove the validity of the Bible we are allowed within the tautology.

The Apostolic Tradition, as I have been trying to contend, is the presuppositional framework with which we begin our interpretation of scripture. As William DiPuccio states:

In this instance, the early Fathers seem to have fully grasped the notion that our understanding of Christianity and the Bible is conditioned by a priori ideas and commitments which originate in the community and culture. Hence, they made no pretensions about epistemological neutrality or detached objectivity. For them the tradition of the church constituted the only legitimate sphere of Biblical interpretation.

But, how then can we demonstrate that the church's oral tradition is true over/against the oral tradition of the gnostics? Here we must turn to that unpopular Romish concept that burns in the ears of so many Protestants: Apostolic succession. Setting aside later alterations and/or distortions of this idea, the original concept of apostolic succession (which included deacons or presbyters as well as bishops) was not so much a succession of ordination, as a succession of living faith and truth as these are embodied in the Scriptures and the ancient Rule of Faith.[12]

And later on he notes:

So the authority and veracity of the Rule was not established by philosophical debate over first principles, but by the continuity of history. Hence, only a historical argument can break the deadlock over first principles. Like us, the early church operated in a society of philosophical pluralism. While apologists such as Quadratus, Aristides, Justin, and Athenagoras, successfully engaged pagan philosophers on their own ground, objectively speaking, the first principles of Christian faith, like the resurrection itself, rest finally upon the faithfulness and authority of the apostolic witness.

So the question becomes one of tautology and Dipuccio answers it:

But upon first consideration, the reasoning of the Fathers seems to be circular since they proved the Scriptures from the Rule and proved the Rule by appealing to Scripture. This tautology was broken in two ways: First, as already mentioned, unlike the NT Scriptures, the Rule is established and transmitted solely by apostolic succession and oral tradition. So, though the Rule may be identical in content to the Bible, it was handed down orally by historical succession. It is the viva vox the living voice of what the Scriptures are in writing. Or, as Yves Congar has pointed out, the same tradition is manifested in two different forms. Second, the Rule marks only the essential doctrines of Scripture and was never intended to comprehend its entire contents. As already mentioned, the Rule functioned in a way similar to Luther's Christological principle by ordering and unfolding the entire corpus of faith.[17]
Hermeneutics, Exegesis, and the Rule of Faith: An Ancient Key to a Modern Question

Thus, I would contend, that presuppostionalism is a necessary formulation within the Christian church but not mutually exclusive from evidentialism.

308 posted on 01/13/2003 12:46:41 PM PST by lockeliberty (Wait on the Lord)
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