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A critique of the evangelical doctrine of solo scriptura
The Highway ^ | Keith Mathison

Posted on 01/06/2003 8:09:14 AM PST by lockeliberty

In the 1980s and early 1990s, a controversy erupted among dispensationalists which came to be referred to as the Lordship Salvation controversy. On one side of the debate were men such as Zane Hodges1 and Charles Ryrie2 who taught a reductionistic doctrine of solafide which absolutized the word “alone” in the phrase “justification by faith alone” and removed it from its overall theological context. Faith was reduced to little more than assent to the truthfulness of certain biblical propositions. Repentance, sanctification, submission to Christ’s Lordship, love, and perseverance were all said to be unnecessary for salvation. Advocates of this position claimed that it was the classical Reformation position taught by Martin Luther and John Calvin. On the other side of the debate was John MacArthur who argued that these men were clearly abandoning the Reformed doctrine of justification by faith alone.3 In addition to the books written by the primary dispensationalist participants, numerous Reformed theologians wrote books and articles criticizing this alteration of the doctrine of solafide.4 A heated theological controversy began which continues in some circles even to this day.

Ironically, a similar drastic alteration of the classical Reformation doctrine of sola scriptura has occurred over the last 150 years, yet this has caused hardly a stir among the theological heirs of the Reformation, who have usually been quick to notice any threatening move against the Reformed doctrine of justification. So much time and effort has been spent guarding the doctrine of sola fide against any perversion or change that many do not seem to have noticed that the classical and foundational Reformed doctrine of sola scriptura has been so altered that is virtually unrecognizable. In its place Evangelicals have substituted an entirely different doctrine. Douglas Jones has coined the term solo scriptura to refer to this aberrant Evangelical version of sola scriptura.5

Modern Evangelicalism has done the same thing to sola scriptura that Hodges and Ryrie did to solafide. But unfortunately so little attention is paid to the doctrine of sola scriptura today that even among trained theologians there is confusion and ambiguity when the topic is raised. Contradictory and insufficient definitions of sola scriptura are commonplace not only among broadly Evangelical authors but among Reformed authors as well. In this chapter we shall examine this aberrant modern Evangelical concept of solo scriptura and explain why it is imperative that the Evangelical church recognize it to be as dangerous as the distorted concepts of solafide that are prevalent in the Church today.

EVANGELICAL INDIVIDUALISM

The modern Evangelical version of solo scriptura is nothing more than a new version of Tradition 0. Instead of being defined as the sole infallible authority, the Bible is said to be the “sole basis of authority”6 Tradition is not allowed in any sense; the ecumenical creeds are virtually dismissed; and the Church is denied any real authority. On the surface it would seem that this modern Evangelical doctrine would have nothing in common with the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox doctrines of authority. But despite the very real differences, the modern Evangelical position shares one major flaw with both the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox positions. Each results in autonomy. Each results in final authority being placed somewhere other than God and His Word. Unlike the Roman Catholic position and the Eastern Orthodox position, however, which invariably result in the autonomy of the Church, the modern Evangelical position inevitably results in the autonomy of the individual believer.

We have already seen that there is a major difference between the concept of Scripture and tradition taught by the classical Reformers and the concept taught by the Anabaptists and their heirs. The Anabaptist concept, here referred to as Tradition 0, attempted to deny the authority of tradition in any real sense. The Scriptures were considered not only the sole final and infallible authority, but the only authority whatsoever. The Enlightenment added the philosophical framework in which to comprehend this individualism. The individual reason was elevated to the position of final authority. Appeals to antiquity and tradition of any kind were ridiculed. In the early years of the United States, democratic populism swept the people along in its fervor.7 The result is a modern American Evangelicalism which has redefined sola scriptura in terms of secular Enlightenment rationalism and rugged democratic individualism.

Perhaps the best way to explain the fundamental problem with the modern Evangelical version of solo scriptura would be through the use of an illustration to which many believers may be able to relate. Almost every Christian who has wrestled with theological questions has encountered the problem of competing interpretations of Scripture. If one asks a dispensationalist pastor, for example, why he teaches premillennialism, the answer will be, “Because the Bible teaches premillennialism.” If one asks the conservative Presbyterian pastor across the street why he teaches amillennialism (or postmillennialism), the answer will likely be, “Because that is what the Bible teaches.” Each man will claim that the other is in error, but by what ultimate authority do they typically make such a judgment? Each man will claim that he bases his judgment on the authority of the Bible, but since each man’s interpretation is mutually exclusive of the other’s, both interpretations cannot be correct. How then do we discern which interpretation is correct?

The typical modern Evangelical solution to this problem is to tell the inquirer to examine the arguments on both sides and decide which of them is closest to the teaching of Scripture. He is told that this is what sola scriptura means — to individually evaluate all doctrines according to the only authority, the Scripture. Yet in reality, all that occurs is that one Christian measures the scriptural interpretations of other Christians against the standard of his own scriptural interpretation. Rather than placing the final authority in Scripture as it intends to do, this concept of Scripture places the final authority in the reason and judgment of each individual believer. The result is the relativism, subjectivism, and theological chaos that we see in modern Evangelicalism today.

A fundamental and self-evident truth that seems to be unconsciously overlooked by proponents of the modern Evangelical version of solo scriptura is that no one is infallible in his interpretation of Scripture. Each of us comes to the Scripture with different presuppositions, blind spots, ignorance of important facts, and, most importantly, sinfulness. Because of this we each read things into Scripture that are not there and miss things in Scripture that are there. Unfortunately, a large number of modern Evangelicals have followed in the footsteps of Alexander Campbell (1788-1866), founder of the Disciples of Christ, who naively believed he could come to Scripture with absolutely no preconceived notions or biases. We have already mentioned Campbell’s naive statement, “I have endeavored to read the Scriptures as though no one had read them before me, and I am as much on my guard against reading them today, through the medium of my own views yesterday, or a week ago, as I am against being influenced by any foreign name, authority, or system whatever.”8

The same ideas were expressed by Lewis Sperry Chafer, the extremely influential founder and first president of Dallas Theological Seminary. Chafer believed that his lack of any theological training gave him the ability to approach scriptural interpretation without bias. He said, “the very fact that I did not study a prescribed course in theology made it possible for me to approach the subject with an unprejudiced mind and to be concerned only with what the Bible actually teaches.”9 This, however, is simply impossible. Unless one can escape the effects of sin, ignorance, and all previous learning, one cannot read the Scriptures without some bias and blind spots. This is a given of the post-Fall human condition.

This naive belief in the ability to escape one’s own noetic and spiritual limitations led Campbell and his modern Evangelical heirs to discount any use of secondary authorities. The Church, the creeds, and the teachings of the early fathers were all considered quaint at best. The discarding of the creeds is a common feature of the modern Evangelical notion of solo scriptura. It is so pervasive that one may find it even in the writings of prominent Reformed theologians. For example, in a recently published and well-received Reformed systematic theology text, Robert Reymond laments the fact that most Reformed Christians adhere to the Trinitarian orthodoxy expressed in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.10 He openly calls for an abandonment of the Nicene Trinitarian concept in favor of a different Trinitarian concept. One cannot help but wonder how this is any different than the Unitarians rejection of creedal orthodoxy. They call for the rejection of one aspect of Nicene Trinitarianism while Reymond calls for the rejection of another. Why is one considered heretical and the other published by a major Evangelical publishing house?

An important point that must be kept in mind is observed by the great nineteenth-century Princeton theologian Samuel Miller. He noted that the most zealous opponents of creeds “have been those who held corrupt opinions?”11 This is still the case today. The one common feature found in many published defenses of heretical doctrines aimed at Evangelical readers is the staunch advocacy of the modern Evangelical notion of solo scriptura with its concomitant rejection of the subordinate authority of the ecumenical creeds. The first goal of these authors is to convince the reader that sola scriptura means solo scriptura. In other words, their first goal is to convince readers that there are no binding doctrinal boundaries within Christianity.

In his defense of annihilationism, for example, Edward Fudge states that Scripture “is the only unquestionable or binding source of doctrine on this or any subject?”12 He adds that the individual should weigh the scriptural interpretations of other uninspired and fallible Christians against Scripture.’13 He does not explain how the Christian is to escape his own uninspired fallibility. The doctrinal boundaries of Christian orthodoxy are cast aside as being historically conditioned and relative.14 Of course, Fudge fails to note that his interpretation is as historically conditioned and relative as any that he criticizes.15

Another heresy that has been widely promoted with the assistance of the modern Evangelical version of solo scriptura is hyper-preterism or pantelism.16 While there are numerous internal squabbles over details, in general advocates of this doctrine insist that Jesus Christ returned in AD. 70 at the destruction of Jerusalem and that at that time sin and death were destroyed, the Adamic curse was lifted, Satan was cast into the lake of fire, the rapture and general resurrection occurred, the final judgment occurred, mourning and crying and pain were done away with, and the eternal state began. The proponents of pantelism are even more vocal in their rejection of orthodox Christian doctrinal boundaries than Fudge. Ed Stevens, for example, writes,

Even if the creeds were to clearly and definitively stand against the preterist view (which they don’t), it would not be an over-whelming problem since they have no real authority anyway. They are no more authoritative than our best opinions today, but they are valued because of their antiquity.17

This is a hallmark of the doctrine of solo scriptura, and it is a position that the classical Reformers adamantly rejected. Stevens continues elsewhere,

We must not take the creeds any more seriously than we do the writings and opinions of men like Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, the Westminster Assembly, Campbell, Rushdoony, or C.S. Lewis.18

Here we see the clear rejection of scripturally based structures of authority. The authority of those who rule in the Church is rejected by placing the decisions of an ecumenical council of ministers on the same level as the words of any individual. This is certainly the democratic way of doing things, and it is as American as apple pie, but it is not Christian. If what Mr. Stevens writes is true, then Christians should not take the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity any more seriously than we take some idiosyncratic doctrine of Alexander Campbell or C.S. Lewis. If this doctrine of solo scriptura and all that it entails is true, then the Church has no more right or authority to declare Arianism a heresy than Cornelius Van Til would have to authoritatively declare classical apologetics a heresy. Orthodoxy and heresy would necessarily be an individualistic and subjective determination.

Another pantelist, John Noe, claims that this rejection of the authority of the ecumenical creeds “is what the doctrine of sola scriptura is all about.”19 As we have demonstrated, this is manifestly untrue of the classical Reformed doctrine of sola scriptura. The doctrine of Scripture being espoused by these men is a doctrine of Scripture that is based upon anabaptistic individualism, Enlightenment rationalism, and democratic populism. It is a doctrine of Scripture divorced from its Christian context. It is no different than the doctrine of Scripture and tradition advocated by the Jehovah’s Witnesses in numerous publications such as Should You Believe in the Trinity? in which individuals are urged to reject the ecumenical Christian creeds in favor of a new hermeneutical context.20 Yet the false idea that this doctrine is the Reformation doctrine pervades the thinking of the modern American Evangelical church. Unfortunately the widespread ignorance of the true Reformation doctrine makes it that much easier for purveyors of false doctrine to sway those who have been either unable or unwilling to check the historical facts.

(Please go to the link for the rest of the Authors arguements.)

SUMMARY

Proponents of solo scriptura have deceived themselves into thinking that they honor the unique authority of Scripture. But unfortunately, by divorcing the Spirit-inspired Word of God from the Spirit-indwelt people of God, they have made it into a plaything and the source of endless speculation. If a proponent of solo scriptura is honest, he recognizes that it is not the infallible Scripture to which he ultimately appeals. His appeal is always to his on fallible interpretation of that Scripture. With solo scriptura it cannot be any other way, and this necessary relativistic autonomy is the fatal flaw of solo scriptura that proves it to be an unChristian tradition of men.

(Excerpt) Read more at the-highway.com ...


TOPICS: History; Theology
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To: Catholicguy
Good grief. Just read them for yourselves..it is all there Mass, Eucharist, Baptism, Holy Orders, Pope, Bishops, Priests, Confession, Prayers for the Dead,Purgatory, Fasting ect ect ect...

The thing, CG, is that Augustine's brand of Catholicism was quite different than yours. That's perfectly natural, given almost 1600 years of evolution of Catholicism between you and him.

I've read Augustine's Confessions, and came away impressed with the guy. But his hermaneutic had a fundamental flaw: the Roman church was so instrumental in his conversion (and let's face it, for all intents and purposes, it was the only game in town until the 1500's.), that he could never conceive of salvation outside of the Roman church. There were splinter groups here and there -- but they were consistantly heretical, such as the Gnostics or the Arians -- but denominational Christianity would not develop until 1600. On earth, there was "the church," the Roman one.

But just because there was one orthodox church doesn't prove that they were 100% correct. Over 500 years, things got added. The Roman Bishop rose in prominance. Penance, initially instituted by Cyprian, a Carthagian bishop looking for a way to let back in Christians who had cracked under torture and denied their faith, grew to cover all kinds of sins. Gradually, the Church began to believe things that the Bible never teaches and that we have no record of 1st-century believers teaching.

Penance is a good case study in tradition. There's no 1st-century record that I am aware of of penance. To my knowledge, it was never taught until after the Decian persecution ~250 AD. This is the origin of the Catholic doctrine of the Treasury of merit. It wasn't broadly accepted right away, either, but pretty roundly opposed by Novatian.

81 posted on 01/07/2003 5:09:53 AM PST by jude24
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To: lockeliberty
The Apostolic tradition is the oral tradition handed down by the Apostles to the early church Fathers for the proper way to interpret scripture.

Why is Sacred Tradition limited only to the proper interpretation of Scripture? Does this teaching come from Scripture or Tradition? Scripture doesn't describe such a limitation:

1 Corinthians 11:2

I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[ 11:2 Or traditions] just as I passed them on to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[ 2:15 Or traditions] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thess. 3:6

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us."

The Church Fathers on Apostolic Tradition:

Pope Clement I

"Then the reverence of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the Gospels is established, and the tradition of the apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults" (Letter to the Corinthians 11 [A.D. 80]).

  Papias

"Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition" (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).

  Eusebius of Caesarea

"At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition" (Church History 4:21).

  Irenaeus

"As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same" (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

"That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

... "It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

"With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

  Clement of Alexandria

"Well, they preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God’s will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds. And well I know that they will exult; I do not mean delighted with this tribute, but solely on account of the preservation of the truth, according as they delivered it. For such a sketch as this, will, I think, be agreeable to a soul desirous of preserving from loss the blessed tradition" (Miscellanies 1:1 [A.D. 208]).

  Origen

"Although there are many who believe that they themselves hold to the teachings of Christ, there are yet some among them who think differently from their predecessors. The teaching of the Church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the churches even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:2 [A.D. 225]).

  Cyprian of Carthage

"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop Fabian by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 75:3 [A.D. 253]).


82 posted on 01/07/2003 5:10:37 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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Comment #83 Removed by Moderator

To: lockeliberty
The roots of solo scriptura lay not in the Apostles, not in the early Church, and not in the Reformers, but instead in the individualism of the Radical Reformation, the rationalism of the Enlightenment, and the democratic populism of early America.

I have to admit that I got lost in the author's use of the term "sola scritura." As the article went on, was he critiquing the modern corruption of the term or the overall doctrine itself? I agree that the term has been abused to justify all kinds of individualistic heresies within the church. However, I do not disagree with the doctrine as formulated during the Reformation.

For example, in the quote above, I believe the author is wrong if he is using this argument to critique the Reformers view of the term. It was Luther at the Worms who set forth the foundation of the doctrine when he declared that he would not recant his writings unless he was shown from Scripture his errors.

Having been raised in a Protestant denomination that had little regard for any creeds, I have since come to love the creeds and confessions and see their just how valuable they are in declaring the truth of the Scriptures.
84 posted on 01/07/2003 5:12:38 AM PST by aardvark1
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To: lockeliberty
A Reformed thinker knows that the rule of Faith is an objective standard and not merely the whim of some Pope.

How do you synthesize the following passages from Scripture?

Isaiah 22:22

I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Matthew 16:19

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Revelation 3:7

"These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.


85 posted on 01/07/2003 5:22:50 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: jude24
But just because there was one orthodox church doesn't prove that they were 100% correct.

<> Jesus established His Church and promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. He sent the Holy Spirit upon it to teach it all truth. He described His Church as the Pillar and Ground of truth.

If the Church Jesus established, promised it wouldn't fail, that received the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity to ensure it would not teach error didn't remain truthful, then Jesus failed.

The Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, has come to understand more fully the Original Deposit of Faith. However, St. Augustine was Catholic and he would be Catholic today were he alive. That is ineluctable

To think St. Augustine wasn't Catholic but was really a Calvinist is akin to thinking Dick Butkus wasn't a Chicago Bear but was really a Cincinnati Bengal.

While it is understandable a Calvinist would have wanted him on their "team," even as it would be understandable the Bengals desired Butkus, St. Augustine never entertained a "trade" from Catholicism to another Calvinist "team" anymore than Dick Butkus would have agreed to be a Bengal.

The only differnce is, The Cincinnati Bengals have the good sense not to distort history by doctoring a photo of Dick Butkus so he appears to be wearing a Cincinnati Bengals' uniform and then publishing a media guide with Butkus' photo on the cover proclaiming Dick Butkus was just inducted into the Hall of Fame as a Cincinnati Bengal<>

86 posted on 01/07/2003 5:33:34 AM PST by Catholicguy
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To: RnMomof7
Pious XII was very quiet during the holocost..where as this pope kisses the koran ..the very people that want to elimate Jews today..silence then and more than silence today

"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

"Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."

Albert Einstein
Time magazine (p. 38) December 23, 1940 issue

"The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace."

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24)

"This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things."

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16)


87 posted on 01/07/2003 5:34:28 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: jude24
Penance is a good case study in tradition. There's no 1st-century record that I am aware of of penance

<> Try the New Testament<>

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

88 posted on 01/07/2003 5:46:43 AM PST by Catholicguy
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To: RnMomof7
Pious XII was very quiet during the holocost..where as this pope kisses the koran ..the very people that want to elimate Jews today..silence then and more than silence today

Citations for Pious XII please...

89 posted on 01/07/2003 6:01:41 AM PST by Fury
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To: P-Marlowe
Do you have any scriptural basis for that statement?

Isaiah 22 describes the key of the House of David and the succession in office of the vice-regent. The key was given by the King of the House of David to his vice-regent (or prime minister) who kept it in a pouch which was slung over his shoulder indicating his authority. In the king's abscence the vice-regent was given full plenary authority.

Isaiah 22

20 "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23

In Matthew, Jesus founds His Church, giving the "keys of the kingdom" to Peter, explicitly indicating Peter's position and office as the King's vice-regent or vicar of Christ:

Matthew 16

18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

St. Paul calls the Church "the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)," so naturally Jesus commands us to take our disputes to His Church to be settled:
Matthew 18

7If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[4] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[5] loosed in heaven.

Jesus tells the Apostles:

John 16:13

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

The Holy Spirit guides Christ's Church into all truth. The deposit of faith is complete. The Church has declared that Revelation has ended (although that fact isn't indicated in the Bible). But Church doctrine continues to develop over the course of history as the Church derives logical conclusions from divinely revealed facts.
90 posted on 01/07/2003 6:05:33 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Fury
<> Sourcing one's attack on the Pope is considered superfluous. The object of the attack is what matters<>
91 posted on 01/07/2003 6:07:12 AM PST by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Good grief. Just read them for yourselves..it is all there Mass, Eucharist, Baptism, Holy Orders, Pope, Bishops, Priests, Confession, Prayers for the Dead,Purgatory, Fasting ect ect ect...

From Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans warning against Doecetic practice:

"7 They abstain from Eucharist and prayer because they do not acknowledge that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ which suffered for our sins, which the Father raised up by his goodness. Those who deny God's gift are dying in their squabbles; it would be better for them to love so that they may rise..."

"The Apostolic Fathers, Modern Translations of These Early Christian Writings", ed Jack N. Sparks", 1978, Thomas Nelson, Nashville.

I have will be ordering soon the works above translated by Kirsopp Lake (Loeb Classical Library), as these seem to be held in high regard by scholars and theologians.

92 posted on 01/07/2003 6:16:04 AM PST by Fury
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To: Fury
<> I have the William S. Jurgens "The Early Church Fathers." collection. You can find some of them available for free online at www.newadvent.com, but, I think you will love having the books themselves<>
93 posted on 01/07/2003 6:38:14 AM PST by Catholicguy
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To: lockeliberty
APATTAT.

???

94 posted on 01/07/2003 6:42:59 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: angelo; Dr. Eckleburg; lockeliberty
Without even getting into ancient or medieval times, there is certainly evidence of anti-semitic attitudes in a number of popes over the past 200 years. Probably more in the 19th century than the 20th. Of course, Catholics will deny this.

I suspect that is is because RC's do not understand the atonement and they blame the Jews for hanging Jesus . I have heard RC's discuss it Jesus had been "allowed " to live..

Jhn 10:17   Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.   

  Jhn 10:18   No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

This was always Gods plan...

95 posted on 01/07/2003 6:51:28 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Aquinasfan
i notice that you did not finish the citation from Isaiah 22. With your indulgence (no pun intended ;~)), i'll post it as it appears in the New American Bible

"I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family; On him shall hang all the glory of his family: descendents and offspring, all the little dishes from bowls to jugs. On that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg fixed in a sure spot shall give way, break off and fall, and the weight that humg on it shall be done away with, for the Lord has spoken. Isaiah 22:23-25 NAB, emphasis by me

Respectfully, A_fan (if i may so refer to you, if not my apologies), this does not appear to make your case, and i doubt that a Catholic apologist would quote it.

As was mentioned by another poster, the Bereans did not take the apostolic word as absolute, but rather checked them against the written revelation to see if they were true, and apostolic authority commended them for this attitude.

You will find that the same apostolic authority has placed limits upon apostolic authority as follows.

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have recieved, let him be accursed"Galatians 1:6-9, KJV, emphasis by me.

Apostolic succession alone, is then meaningless unless consistent with the truths which have been revealed in the scriptures.

96 posted on 01/07/2003 7:03:04 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: B-Chan
The Holy Spirit makes a Pope infallible

Did the Holy Spirit teach the church to sell indulgences for hard cash?

Rome added uninspired books that support their doctrine...

...* The apocrypha  (or "deuterocanonical" books) of the Catholic Bible were rejected for the following reasons:

*      None were accepted by the Jews.
*      None of them claim inspiration.   (One even specifically says so! 1 Mac. 9:27)
*      None claim or contain predictive prophecy
*      None are included in the ancient writings in whole until the 4th century.
*      They contain historical, geographical and chronological errors
. *     The discovery at Qumran included some apocryphal books (and many others that were not included with the Scriptures.
*      Most of them (with the exception of 1+2 Esdras, and The Prayer of Manasseh) were only included centuries after everyone else had agreed they were not to be included (as a divisive tactic against the Protestant movement at the Council of Trent in 1546).

97 posted on 01/07/2003 7:03:21 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Joshua
I think the whole Marian doctrine is found in the book 1Confusions 3:12-22(Douay Rheims)

LOL LOL

98 posted on 01/07/2003 7:04:12 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Joshua; P-Marlowe; lockeliberty
"As Vicar of Christ, he is the living embodiment of Christ's promise to preserve His Church from error.
Never leave these threads thinking, "Now I've heard it all"

Naw I am sure something else will come up that is as "interesting"

99 posted on 01/07/2003 7:07:32 AM PST by RnMomof7
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Comment #100 Removed by Moderator


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