Posted on 01/06/2003 8:09:14 AM PST by lockeliberty
The thing, CG, is that Augustine's brand of Catholicism was quite different than yours. That's perfectly natural, given almost 1600 years of evolution of Catholicism between you and him.
I've read Augustine's Confessions, and came away impressed with the guy. But his hermaneutic had a fundamental flaw: the Roman church was so instrumental in his conversion (and let's face it, for all intents and purposes, it was the only game in town until the 1500's.), that he could never conceive of salvation outside of the Roman church. There were splinter groups here and there -- but they were consistantly heretical, such as the Gnostics or the Arians -- but denominational Christianity would not develop until 1600. On earth, there was "the church," the Roman one.
But just because there was one orthodox church doesn't prove that they were 100% correct. Over 500 years, things got added. The Roman Bishop rose in prominance. Penance, initially instituted by Cyprian, a Carthagian bishop looking for a way to let back in Christians who had cracked under torture and denied their faith, grew to cover all kinds of sins. Gradually, the Church began to believe things that the Bible never teaches and that we have no record of 1st-century believers teaching.
Penance is a good case study in tradition. There's no 1st-century record that I am aware of of penance. To my knowledge, it was never taught until after the Decian persecution ~250 AD. This is the origin of the Catholic doctrine of the Treasury of merit. It wasn't broadly accepted right away, either, but pretty roundly opposed by Novatian.
Why is Sacred Tradition limited only to the proper interpretation of Scripture? Does this teaching come from Scripture or Tradition? Scripture doesn't describe such a limitation:
1 Corinthians 11:2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[ 11:2 Or traditions] just as I passed them on to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[ 2:15 Or traditions] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thess. 3:6
"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us."
The Church Fathers on Apostolic Tradition:
Pope Clement I"Then the reverence of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the Gospels is established, and the tradition of the apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults" (Letter to the Corinthians 11 [A.D. 80]).
Papias
"Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition" (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).
Eusebius of Caesarea
"At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition" (Church History 4:21).
Irenaeus
"As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same" (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).
"That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?" (ibid., 3:4:1).
... "It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.
"With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:1–2).
Clement of Alexandria
"Well, they preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God’s will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds. And well I know that they will exult; I do not mean delighted with this tribute, but solely on account of the preservation of the truth, according as they delivered it. For such a sketch as this, will, I think, be agreeable to a soul desirous of preserving from loss the blessed tradition" (Miscellanies 1:1 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"Although there are many who believe that they themselves hold to the teachings of Christ, there are yet some among them who think differently from their predecessors. The teaching of the Church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the churches even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:2 [A.D. 225]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop Fabian by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 75:3 [A.D. 253]).
How do you synthesize the following passages from Scripture?
Isaiah 22:22I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Revelation 3:7
"These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
<> Jesus established His Church and promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. He sent the Holy Spirit upon it to teach it all truth. He described His Church as the Pillar and Ground of truth.
If the Church Jesus established, promised it wouldn't fail, that received the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity to ensure it would not teach error didn't remain truthful, then Jesus failed.
The Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, has come to understand more fully the Original Deposit of Faith. However, St. Augustine was Catholic and he would be Catholic today were he alive. That is ineluctable
To think St. Augustine wasn't Catholic but was really a Calvinist is akin to thinking Dick Butkus wasn't a Chicago Bear but was really a Cincinnati Bengal.
While it is understandable a Calvinist would have wanted him on their "team," even as it would be understandable the Bengals desired Butkus, St. Augustine never entertained a "trade" from Catholicism to another Calvinist "team" anymore than Dick Butkus would have agreed to be a Bengal.
The only differnce is, The Cincinnati Bengals have the good sense not to distort history by doctoring a photo of Dick Butkus so he appears to be wearing a Cincinnati Bengals' uniform and then publishing a media guide with Butkus' photo on the cover proclaiming Dick Butkus was just inducted into the Hall of Fame as a Cincinnati Bengal<>
"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...
"Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."
Albert Einstein
Time magazine (p. 38) December 23, 1940 issue"The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace."
The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24)
"This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things."
The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16)
<> Try the New Testament<>
22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Citations for Pious XII please...
Isaiah 22 describes the key of the House of David and the succession in office of the vice-regent. The key was given by the King of the House of David to his vice-regent (or prime minister) who kept it in a pouch which was slung over his shoulder indicating his authority. In the king's abscence the vice-regent was given full plenary authority.
Isaiah 2220 "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23
In Matthew, Jesus founds His Church, giving the "keys of the kingdom" to Peter, explicitly indicating Peter's position and office as the King's vice-regent or vicar of Christ:
Matthew 16St. Paul calls the Church "the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)," so naturally Jesus commands us to take our disputes to His Church to be settled:18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Matthew 187If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[4] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[5] loosed in heaven.
Jesus tells the Apostles:
John 16:13The Holy Spirit guides Christ's Church into all truth. The deposit of faith is complete. The Church has declared that Revelation has ended (although that fact isn't indicated in the Bible). But Church doctrine continues to develop over the course of history as the Church derives logical conclusions from divinely revealed facts.But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.
From Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans warning against Doecetic practice:
"7 They abstain from Eucharist and prayer because they do not acknowledge that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ which suffered for our sins, which the Father raised up by his goodness. Those who deny God's gift are dying in their squabbles; it would be better for them to love so that they may rise..."
"The Apostolic Fathers, Modern Translations of These Early Christian Writings", ed Jack N. Sparks", 1978, Thomas Nelson, Nashville.
I have will be ordering soon the works above translated by Kirsopp Lake (Loeb Classical Library), as these seem to be held in high regard by scholars and theologians.
???
I suspect that is is because RC's do not understand the atonement and they blame the Jews for hanging Jesus . I have heard RC's discuss it Jesus had been "allowed " to live..
Jhn 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
This was always Gods plan...
"I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family; On him shall hang all the glory of his family: descendents and offspring, all the little dishes from bowls to jugs. On that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg fixed in a sure spot shall give way, break off and fall, and the weight that humg on it shall be done away with, for the Lord has spoken. Isaiah 22:23-25 NAB, emphasis by me
Respectfully, A_fan (if i may so refer to you, if not my apologies), this does not appear to make your case, and i doubt that a Catholic apologist would quote it.
As was mentioned by another poster, the Bereans did not take the apostolic word as absolute, but rather checked them against the written revelation to see if they were true, and apostolic authority commended them for this attitude.
You will find that the same apostolic authority has placed limits upon apostolic authority as follows.
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have recieved, let him be accursed"Galatians 1:6-9, KJV, emphasis by me.
Apostolic succession alone, is then meaningless unless consistent with the truths which have been revealed in the scriptures.
Did the Holy Spirit teach the church to sell indulgences for hard cash?
Rome added uninspired books that support their doctrine...
...* The apocrypha (or "deuterocanonical" books) of the Catholic Bible were rejected for the following reasons:
* None were accepted by the Jews.
* None of them claim inspiration. (One even specifically says so! 1 Mac. 9:27)
* None claim or contain predictive prophecy
* None are included in the ancient writings in whole until the 4th century.
* They contain historical, geographical and chronological errors
. * The discovery at Qumran included some apocryphal books (and many others that were not included with the Scriptures.
* Most of them (with the exception of 1+2 Esdras, and The Prayer of Manasseh) were only included centuries after everyone else had agreed they were not to be included (as a divisive tactic against the Protestant movement at the Council of Trent in 1546).
LOL LOL
Naw I am sure something else will come up that is as "interesting"
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