IS YOUR MASS VALID? Liturgical Abuse

Our Lady's Warriors ^ | Bruce Sabalaskey

[Coleus]

110. After the doxology at the end of the eucharistic prayer, the priest, with hands joined, says the introduction to the Lord's Prayer. With hands outstretched he then sings or says this prayer with the people.

111. After the Lord's Prayer, the priest alone, with hands outstretched, says the embolism, "Deliver us."

At the end the congregation makes the acclamation, "For the kingdom."

[Tantumergo]

"They will look upon Him and say "where did you get those awful wounds?" Jesus will then say "I received them in the house of my friends". And so many of the Jews will then have their hearts and understanding opened and will accept Jesus as their Messiah."

While this may be very interesting speculation and midrash, I think you will be hard pushed to produce any scriptural support for it.

I look forward to receiving your considered response in the near future.

[Ex-Wretch]

"While this may be very interesting speculation and midrash, I think you will be hard pushed to produce any scriptural support for it.

I look forward to receiving your considered response in the near future."

Per your request, from Zechariah 12 ...

[8] In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
[9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
[11] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
[12] And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
[13] The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
[14] All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

As you know, much of prophesy is interpretive. Taken as a whole, we know how the story ends. For the saints ... good. For the sinners ... not good. I fear God and trust God's Word.

Last night we had a prophesy after prayer. It was a warning that 2003 will be a tumultuous year and that Satan will declare war on the Saints of God! You can choose to scoff and not believe what I just told you. However, I cannot shrug it off. We truly are living in the end times and, anyone half familiar with God's Word would be willing to agree that these are perilous times we are living in. This was a direct warning to surrender our own wills totally to God, come out from the world and be holy unto the Lord. This is not new news to the true believer. However, there were many at our service last night who had never heard (or previously responded to) this information before.

Sorry to be so short but I've got to run off again now. My sincere hope is to meet you all around the throne of God sometime soon! :)

[Coleus]

It has helped me recognize small abuses that have been introduced into my parish.>>>>

What do your priests do?

[Coleus]

What's wrong with the hand holding? I don't like it and do not do it myself but if the church allows it, so be it. It is a faith Community and Christ did say that if 2 or more gather in His name He is there with us. I also heard the sign is peace, shaking hands during mass, is wrong, but those are Opinions of some priests who appear on EWTN and not the Bishops who run the church.

[Jael]

Last night we had a prophesy after prayer. It was a warning that 2003 will be a tumultuous year and that Satan will declare war on the Saints of God!

I think the only prophecies we have now are in the Scripture.

Hebrews 1:1  ¶God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

I do however believe that Satan is at war with us. But because the Bible says so. :-)

Ephesians 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

[Desdemona]

also heard the sign is peace, shaking hands during mass, is wrong, but those are Opinions of some priests who appear on EWTN and not the Bishops who run the church.

That's just it, though. The current translated rubrics are vague. When the new translation comes out it might change. Personally, the practice is banal and the orans posture reeks of priest-envy. I hope both are disallowed. The Our Father is a prayer to God. Plain and simple, not a community builder.

[Coleus]

I guess what really counts is how we live the gospels in our day-to-day lives with our hands up or down, in Latin or whatever really doesn't matter when you come down to it.

[Catholicguy]

<> That is an anfractuous way of saying, "No," to my #55 post.

I guess it is easier to accost others than it is to explain your own position :)<>

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

But if no position is prescribed, one may not infer that one position is acceptable and others are prohibited. The best inference would be that there are perhaps several acceptable positions.

Many, including Colin Donovan, disagree. I maintain that Chaput, along with many other members of the episcopacy, are wrong. Standing on one's head or waving one's hands above their head aren't prescribed either and they would be illicit as well.

What is not prohibited is not thereby possible. Even the GIRM is in the context of the Catholic liturgical tradition. There is no tradition of the laity making hand gestures at Mass, save those which long-standing custom has sanctioned as not contradicting their role (signing of the forehead, lips and breast, beating of the chest at Confiteor etc.). New ones could arise which would be acceptable on that basis also. The standard would be the same, gestures which suggest a ministerial priestly role for the laity would contradict the sacramentality of the Mass, and be unacceptable. My thought is that the orans during Mass likely is seen by Rome as a contradition, which may explain while after talking about doing it the bishops conference did not submit the gesture to Rome as part of the American adaptations.

So, in general, unless it is mentioned in the GIRM, or of long-standing Catholic liturgical custom, the introdution within the Mass of new gestures is an innovation and not licit. But to be honest, though I believe it contradicts the sign system of the Mass, we will need a ruling from the Holy See to definitely judge whether the orans for the laity is a developing custom that can be admitted or should be suppressed.

[Ex-Wretch]

"<> That is an anfractuous way of saying, "No," to my #55 post.

I guess it is easier to accost others than it is to explain your own position :)<>

Anfractuous huh? Well, I was stumped so I had to consult the dictionary. CG, I want to be on your side when they get out the Scrabble board! (hehe)

I thought I explained my position. What is it you are looking for? And, just spit it out ... don't use such high-priced words with me (Sister Jean Eileen never taught me them :)

Also, I'm curious as to why you begin and end with <>. Your trademark?

[Ex-Wretch]

... don't use such high-priced words with me (Sister Jean Eileen never taught me them :)

P.S. - you must've had a Jesuit education. I told you mine was Dominican :)

[Catholicguy]

<> Yeah, I guess this is just a habit. I just like the way it looks<>

[Catholicguy]

I agree. That being the case, how does your community reflect the truthfulness of the prophecy of Malachias 1:10-11?

<>. I was looking to see in what way your community reflects the truth of this Prophecy.<> The Prophesy of Malachias

Chapter 1,

God reproaches the Jews with their ingratitude: and the priests for not offering pure sacrifices. He will accept of the sacrifice that shall be offered in every place among the Gentiles.

1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by the hand of Malachias.

2 I have loved you, saith the Lord: and you have said: Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau brother to Jacob, saith the Lord, and I have loved Jacob,

3 But have hated Esau? and I have made his mountains a wilderness, and given his inheritance to the dragons of the desert.

4 But if Edom shall say: We are destroyed, but we will return and build up what hath been destroyed: thus saith the Lord of hosts: They shall build up, and I will throw down: and they shall be called the borders of wickedness, and the people with whom the Lord is angry for ever.

5 And your eyes shall see: and you shall say: The Lord be magnified upon the border of Israel.

6 The son honoureth the father, and the servant his master: if then I be a father, where is my honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear: saith the Lord of hosts.

7 To you, O priests, that despise my name, and have said: Wherein have we despised thy name? You offer polluted bread upon my altar, and you say: Wherein have we polluted thee? In that you say: The table of the Lord is contemptible.

8 If you offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if you offer the lame and the sick, is it not evil? offer it to thy prince, if he will be pleased with it, or if he will regard thy face, saith the Lord of hosts.

9 And now beseech ye the face of God, that he may have mercy on you, (for by your hand hath this been done,) if by any means he will receive your faces, saith the Lord of hosts.

10 Who is there among you, that will shut the doors, and will kindle the fire on my altar gratis? I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will not receive a gift of your hand.

11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts

<> Note that the 16th century revolutionaries changed the words to obscure the truth of the Sacrifice of the Mass. Your KJV reads differently<>

[Catholicguy]

don't use such high-priced words ..

<> I got 'em for free. They help me to be sesquipedalic :)<>

[Ex-Wretch]

They help me to be sesquipedalic :)

OK, you win. Even Websters Online couldn't help me :(

... "The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the Dictionary search box to the right."

Suggestions for sesquipedalic:
1. squalidnesses
2. squalidest
3. squalidness
4. sequestrated
5. sequestered
6. square-danced
7. square-dancing
8. Zakarpats'ka
9. surrealistically
10. psychopathologic

Does #4 mean you've been castrated in private? I don't think you want to be that.

I'm not trying to dodge you. I just have other things I'm also doing (I'm not multi-tasking well). I'll try and get to you asap.

[Ex-Wretch]

11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts

Help me out here. I'm not following where you're trying to take me. Are you trying to project that the "sacrifice" and "clean oblation" mentioned in this verse are references to Jesus being slain on the RC altar at Mass? I notice that the verse refers in present tense, not the future tense(like the KJV).

Other observations: Also, the altar Moses was instructed to build was to be of earth or uncut stone. Otherwise it would pollute the sacrifice. What kind of altars are used in the RCC? Or, am I way off the subject?

I mentioned that our praise and prayers are acceptable and a sweet offering unto the Lord. Other than that, I see no need and feel no unction to try to improve upon or re-create the work that Jesus did on Calvary. Nor would I want to.

Is that what you were looking for? I'm not really a deep-thinking theologian type. I like things simple, especially when it comes to faith :)

[St.Chuck]

Am I to take it that this is an American phenomena exclusively, that England still has the good sense to understand what dignity entails. How about on the continent? Any handholding going on over thar?

[Tantumergo]

"Am I to take it that this is an American phenomena exclusively, that England still has the good sense to understand what dignity entails."

There are plenty of examples of undignified goings on in the Mass in England, but generally hand-holding doesn't happen. It could well be due to that notorious English reserve and "stiff upper lip."

Traditionally we tend to be distrustful of anything that smacks of emotionalism over here, but you can see how that is now breaking down due to importation of culture across the Atlantic.

I was in the Caribbean last year and this hand-holding during the Our Father was just everywhere - it was quite stomach-turning - and we were warned that people would take offence if we didn't take their hands!! That's when the advantages of being a leper first occurred to me.

"How about on the continent? Any handholding going on over thar?"

I cannot be certain about this. I have only ever been to Mass in France and Spain, but in the Churches I went to no hand-holding went on. I just hope its not caused by a virus that's transmitted in McDonald's burgers - or we're all doomed!!!

[Catholicguy]

11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts Help me out here. I'm not following where you're trying to take me. Are you trying to project that the "sacrifice" and "clean oblation" mentioned in this verse are references to Jesus being slain on the RC altar at Mass?

<> NO. Because that is not what happens.<>

I notice that the verse refers in present tense, not the future tense(like the KJV).

<> This is not the past tense. At the time this was written, Gentiles did not consider "his name great" nor did they "offer (ed) to my name a clean oblation.." This refers to Christians offering worship to our Lord in the manner He himself commanded; what has come to be know as the Mass.

My question is what does your community do that fulfills this promise?<>

Other observations: Also, the altar Moses was instructed to build was to be of earth or uncut stone. Otherwise it would pollute the sacrifice. What kind of altars are used in the RCC? Or, am I way off the subject? I mentioned that our praise and prayers are acceptable and a sweet offering unto the Lord. Other than that, I see no need and feel no unction to try to improve upon or re-create the work that Jesus did on Calvary. Nor would I want to.

<> The way Christians offer worship to God is not a man made invention. It is a command of the GodMan. He told us/showed us how to worship Him. Christians merely follow Him because He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life

Is that what you were looking for? I'm not really a deep-thinking theologian type. I like things simple, especially when it comes to faith

<> KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)Theology is how Jesus had to deal with folks like us, mere humans. He knew how poorly we understood truth and how confused we become when we go off on our own, so, He himself became our kin to ransom us from slavery, to save us, and to teach us how we should worship Him correctly.

When one hears, "Worship Him in your own way," one ought to immediately object, "NO." We must worship Him in His Way, not ours. He showed us ho to worship Him. All we have to do is obey and follow His will, not ours<>