Posted on 12/29/2002 9:23:52 PM PST by PFKEY
Hope no one minds the vanity too much.
I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.
Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.
Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. We're meant to spend time and energy studying Scripture.
That's why most of us are here on this forum. To learn and to share.
But this isn't zen. There is only one truth.
We're instructed to seek it, unceasingly.
Those whom God intends to find it, will. Have faith, KC.
Repentance is a gift that God gives it not self generated.I agree. It is a gift of God. None may legitimately boast otherwise.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The happiest of New Years to you and yours as well.
Quester
Is this your call to make?
No kidding? Thanks for stating the obvious.That's about the only thing ya'll can agree on.
And there you see Man's problem: as long as he is factually unregenerated and spiritually-dead in his sins, it remains against his nature to come to God.
The arminian would like to say that a man "touched" by Grace may perhaps "come to God", but the Dry Bones of the house of Israel did not stand up as the Army of the Lord when they were first "touched" (indeed, outwardly reconstructed!!) by God (Ezekiel 37:5-8), but only after they were regenerated -- after God had breathed new life into them (Ezekiel 37:9-10).
That's the trouble with a corpse. You can "touch" it, "shine a light" on it, poke it with a cattle prod if you like, but unless the corpse is quickened it is not going to stand up and walk.
The Anti-Calvinists want to claim that the Spiritually-Dead will make a God-pleasing Choice because they have been "touched" by Grace or "enlightened" by Grace or "persuaded" by Grace... anything they can imagine, except to say that the Spiritually-Dead must be quickened by Grace before they will EVER make a God-pleasing Choice. Unfortunately for their theology, though, the Bible makes all such formulations of imaginations theologically illegal -- for the Scriptures expressly state that the Spiritually-Dead do NOT make God-pleasing Choices as long as their spirits are still, in fact, dead.
Thus, if theology is to be Biblical, we must say that the dead spirits of men are regenerated by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit before they will ever choose the God-pleasing Choice, for the dead spirits of Men never make God-pleasing choices while they are Spiritually-dead.
It's certainly my Christian duty to judge that I might not Sin against Conscience, if I am to choose between Pastors.
For example, applying the Bar of Scripture in order to "test the spirits", I would have to judge a traditional Roman Catholic priest to be (at least marginally) more "enlightened" by the Holy Spirit than a Mormon preacher, and would select the Roman Catholic -- if I were compelled to choose between the two.
And, applying the Bar of Scripture in order to "test the spirits", I'd have to judge an Orthodox Lutheran to be more "enlightened" than a traditional Roman Catholic, and prefer the Lutheran to the Roman Catholic. Et cetera, on up the line.
oh great. Another "Catholics Are Going to Hell Thread" courtesy of RnMom.
I did not say that I said Rome is wrong...there are some saved Catholics ..but it is no thanks to the doctrine of Rome..It is by the power of the Grace of God ..
Calvinian.
What a great and accurate term.
Somehow, the word "Calvinist" elicits all sorts of slanderous charges of "worshipping Calvin."
But the term "Arminian" is supposedly just fine.
Calvinian.
Other than the fact that a Believer certainly does need to conscientiously examine his Pastor's fidelity to Scripture, I am not sure what more to say on the subject.
Would you care to refine/re-define the question?
Really? Then you should be able to give us the Scriptures that reveal when God chose his elect, what they will receive, and what those he didn't select (elect) will receive.
Would you be so kind as to provide those Scriptures from the Bible?
OP,
I think your post was a very kind and charitable one, and I thank you for it. Certainly we are not big on answers and theological precision/truth, though we do believe some of our truths to be just that and essential (that is, Holy Scripture as the word of God, the Trinity with the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, etc.).
As for a doctrine of salvation, I am sure you know ours is rather sketchy at best. It's more of a "good luck" than anything else, imho. It would be wonderful if you protestants turn out to be correct about salvation. :-) I don't think it is out of line to hope for such as we pretty much leave that an open book in Eastern Orthodoxy.
Each Christian is encouraged to pursue holiness and divine, personal knowledge of God through Scripture, the liturgy, prayer, sobornost, and fasting. It is expected that the Holy Spirit will be the best teacher one could have, and in this thinking, our clergy and leadership tend to step back from authoritative stands and allow/encourage us to "seek and find".
"When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth...."
"But you have been anointed by the Holy One and you know all things..."
"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.."
You could see it as arrogant to reject the reformers doctrine of salvation, but I think it is more likely to be the symptom of our renowned "stick to something and never change" mentality in Eastern Orthodoxy. As well as our reluctance to actually state that anyone is definitely and without doubt headed for the Eternal Kingdom.
I find you to be extremely knowledgeable, as are the majority of protestants posting here. I come here to learn and I never go away without learning something new. I am thankful to you all for having me with such charity, and for the incredible base of knowledge you all have, and share, in Holy Scripture.
I confess I must know go and find out about the Patriarch of which you speak and what he proposed.
Thank you again for a most generous and kind overview of my church. Please give my regards to your friend and if you can, please remember me in your prayers!
What an excellent point.
Even Ultima agrees Rome is wrong. Absolute power and worship of it/him does bring "rewards".
Only Christ can be the head of the church.
Sounds like Eve talking. Sounds like what a member of one of the feminized churches would say.
Sounds like a misleading, deceptive Arminian concept, rather than the biblically accurate concept, "unregenerated".
Define "untouched", please.
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