Do babies go to Heaven?

[PFKEY]

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father [John 6:65].

But remember now, you have to put with that “whosoever will may come.” It’s up to you, you see. :)

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

xzing God found you in that room that night..He had a plan for you..

I am an ordinary houswife. I am nothing..what kind of plan could he have for me?? Certainly not one like yours..But even before I was a Calvinist..I knew it was never about me ,but that God would use..BUT perhaps some one I brought..an Andrew thing you know?

[RnMomof7]

Happy New Year to you and Becky..may God bless and keep you this year and maybe bring you my way for a Niagra Falls vacation:>)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Mmm. I think you kinda screwed up your attempt at sarcastic commentary already, today. Or "to today". Er, whatever.

Naw, its just you don't want to talk about you being drunk and posting the other night, but thats ok, your posts are there for all to see.

BigMack

[lockeliberty]

2 questions:

1.) Do you believe in the Trinity?

2.) Is your group lead by a charismatic leader?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Your use of... Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. falls nothing but flat as well, in your claim that an unsaved man couldn't believe in Jesus Christ. ~~ Paul is speaking here as a saved man who still struggles with the flesh.

Ma'am, that's exactly the point.

If Paul himself, imbued with the Life of the Holy Spirit, found that "how to perform that which is good I find not" in the carnality of his flesh, then how is it that you claim a totally carnal Fallen Man, spiritually-dead and unregenerate, will perform the good choice to Repent and Follow Jesus?

How is it that you claim an Unregenerate Man will perform the good Choice, the God-pleasing choice to Repent and follow Jesus, when Scripture states that the Fallen and unregenerate Man will NEVER perform that which is good (Rom 7:18) and NEVER choose the God-pleasing choice (Rom 8:5-8)?

You have to be willing to lay aside your man-made theologies if you're going to believe the Bible, Jael.

[JesseShurun]

The Son of Man comes eating and drinking and they (the Pharisees) say, here is a glutton.

Get over yourself. Beer is God's proof that he wants men to be happy, says an old Jewish proverb.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Naw, its just you don't want to talk about you being drunk and posting the other night, but thats ok, your posts are there for all to see. BigMack

"Drunk"? On account of a numerical reference typo?
Gosh, I hate to admit... I commit typos when I'm stone-cold sober. ;-)

Hmmm... I don't suppose you've been tipping the bottle "to today", eh Mack?

Cheers......

[RnMomof7]

Whosoever is also PAS same word..and the question is who will come? Jesus says it is only those given by the Father..the others will do what we see around us Mack,bite their tongues as they curse God

[Jael]

This is coming from a man who takes what Paul says as a saved man, to other saved men, and tries to make it fit the unsaved?

No, you back up. I have proved you wrong twice already, not to mention all the other posts and Scripture you ignored.

You are taking and twisting the Scriptures to fit what some man told you, you are a follower of man.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not what you claim it to be. The Gospel is not Election (which is according to FOREKNOWLEDGE anyway).

What must I do to be saved??? You couldn't answer that. Paul and Silas could. With the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32  And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33  And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34  And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.


Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, **after** that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also **after that ye believed**, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise


1 Corinthians 15:1  ¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you ***the gospel*** which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2  **By which also ye are saved**, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, **how that Christ died for our sins** according to the scriptures;

4  And that **he was buried**, and that **he rose again** the third day according to the scriptures:

5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

You are preaching another Gospel. Examine yourself, and see whether or not ye be in the faith.

[Some hope remaining.]

Ok, I admit I've read virtually none of this thread (or any other thread in here for quite some time) but I thought I'd pop in and stir the pot a bit by posting the LDS view of this topic.

Source: Moroni 8:5-26

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach - repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing-

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;

26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

This is coming from a man who takes what Paul says as a saved man, to other saved men, and tries to make it fit the unsaved?

Ma'am, think. If Paul himself finds that "to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not", how is it that you propose that the Fallen and Unregenerate Man will perform that which is Good (such as the good choice to Repent and Follow Jesus)?

No, you back up. I have proved you wrong twice already, not to mention all the other posts and Scripture you ignored.

Er... Where?

It simply won't do to just wave your hands and claim victory, Ma'am; the fact is that you are still worshipping a man-made theology which pretends that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will choose the God-pleasing choice to Repent and follow Jesus -- a theology which directly contradicts Romans 8:5-8, which expressly states that the Fallen and unregenerate Man will NEVER choose the God-pleasing choice.

---

And as long as you claim that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will select the God-pleasing Choice to Repent and Follow Jesus, your man-made theologies are AT WAR AGAINST the Infallible Word of God. (Romans 8:5-8)

---

best, op

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You got Freepmail

BigMack

[xzins]

That little room has troubled me for months.

Jesus took the initiative and knocked on the door. I'm certain of where the first knock came from.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The "hubris" lies in the fallacy that Paul chose to get up when God struck him down.

Rather, God struck Paul; God lifted Paul; God saved Paul.

Much like you and me.

From that truth, everything flows back.

[Jael]

First, OP used Paul as a saved man, speaking to other saved men to try and establish something regarding unsaved men. It will not work and it is an abuse of Scripture to do so.

"Romans 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

THIS IS NOT speaking to unsaved men about unsaved men, it is speaking to the Church about the struggle with the flesh. You people need to be honest and stop trying to shoehorn God's word into places it doesn't go.




Secondly, the passage regarding the "things of the Spirit" should be looked at in light of the whole passage.

1 Corinthians 2:6  ¶Howbeit we speak wisdom ***among them that are perfect****:[He is speaking to saved people here, about the things God hath prepared for them that love him, he is not speaking to the salvation of the lost.] yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, ***the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.***

10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

What are the things of the spirit here?

***the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.***

Do you know what those things are?

James 2:5  Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

We are heirs to the Kingdom.

Amen. And of course an unsaved man is not going to discern that. It isn't his, it isn't given unto him. But it isn't a verse or passage that concerns his ability to be saved, should he believe the Gospel.

That is also why preaching on Heaven, while nice, is not the Gospel.

[kcfathero4]

Just a question. If the Divine Holy Spirit of the Most High
indwells both the Armenian and the Calvinist, why does God
allow both arguments to continue? Why hasn't the Holy Spirit worked in the hearts of the group that is in error
and revealed to them their error? I mean we are talking about a basic doctrine of Salvation. Surely God desires that mankind be clear about this, so why the silence of the Spirit?

[JesseShurun]

It's that old saw about effort put in equals the results given out, or maybe it's the Pythagorean Theorum re the hypoteneuse. At any rate, to understand the Word, one must read it, again and again and again, ever learning. Some days you get diamonds, some days you get gold, but move away from the Word one day, and Torah will move a week away from you.

[kcfathero4]

So only one of the groups reads the Word? I'm sure both sides have sincere members who faithfully study God's Word.
Both will share their faith with others yet one espouses a lie. As they teach and believe this lie does the Spirit of
God sit passively by and offer no guidance?
Can sincere men of God, in right relationship with the Father, sit on both sides of this issue?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Does God damn for already forgiven sin? If not, then Jesus saved no one on the cross...man saves himself.

This is a great post, RnMom. Hope Jael understands the depth of its meaning.

It took me awhile. But once one realizes that if Christ "died for all men, but some men still go to hell," Christ's sacrifice was cruelly ineffectual.

And we know that's not true.

God saves whom He wishes. Same as it ever was.

Thank you, Jesus, for saving a wretch like me...and probably xzins 8~).