Do babies go to Heaven?

[PFKEY]

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Are you sober to today?

BigMack

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Are you sober to today? BigMack

"To today"??

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Today

BigMack

[xzins]

YOU are not anyone I would ever trust in regards to any doctrinal discussion. You don't hold the truth, you don't have it and you are not in a church that practices it.

Well, so much for my advice. Sorry, OP.

Jael, I just retired as an army chaplain. Here's a real scenario from the files of the battlefield. Baptist chaplain is on the field of combat with a severely wounded and dying soldier. The chaplain counsels the young man and he expresses a new-found faith in Christ. The boy asks to be baptized but there's only the chaplain's canteen and the boy's.

As a minister of Christ, what do you do? Do you do nothing because you can't immerse the boy, or do you use the canteen of water?

[RnMomof7]

You did not really answer me..you seem to have a select predestination position..some of the saved are elect and some just choose..I can not find a scripture to support that do you have one?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

If it's not relevant to salvation do not include it in your arguments that man can't understand the things of the Spirit. Admit you were wrong to include it in your list of Scriptures, because it didn't apply.

(Sigh). Ma'am, it's relevant precisely because of what Paul says regarding the understanding of the "things of the spirit" in 1 Corinthians 2:12 -- "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

But the Fallen and unregenerate Man does not receive the Spirit.

***John 14:17 -- Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Which means that you can't get the Fallen Man "there" (1 Corinthians 2:8-10) from where he "begins" (1 Corinthians 2:14) by his own unregenerate choice, because the Fallen and unregenerate Man will NEVER make the God-pleasing Choice (Romans 7:18, Romans 8:5-8).

I don't follow a man made doctrine like you. No man taught me what I believe, except the Holy Spirit, by the Word of God. We are back to this, your church is nothing more than a daughter of Rome who still follows in it's mother's footsteps, baptizing unsaved unbelieving babies and saying they are now in Christ.

Well, we're certainly back to you repeating yourself with these same charges.

• Meanwhile, you have never addressed Romans 8:5-8. And why not?
• Because you know full well that your man-made theology teaches that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will make the God-pleasing Choice to repent and follow Jesus, and Romans 8:5-8 expressly states that Fallen and unregenerate Man NEVER makes the God-pleasing Choice.

And, to put it bluntly, you love your man-made, human theology better than Romans 8:5-8.

Well, that simply won't do. Not if you want to be a Bible Believer.
Which, as long as you deny Romans 8:5-8, you aren't.

[lockeliberty]

I don't follow a man made doctrine like you. No man taught me what I believe, except the Holy Spirit, by the Word of God.

Every bible-based cult says exactly the same thing and rejects all or most of historic Christianity.

I am very scared for you.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Today BigMack

Oh. Well, that makes more sense than "to today".
Got the hiccups??

[RnMomof7]

If it's not relevant to salvation do not include it in your arguments that man can't understand the things of the Spirit.

Jael he just gave you scripture that says the natuaral man can not understand the things of the spirit..if you can not understand them how can you choose them? Did Christ make his death contingent as saving on those that are deaf hearing? Or did he make some provision for them to hear ? (election??)

[Jael]

No, that isn't my theology at all.

Jesus says he will draw all me to him. Does he lie? No, it is impossible for Him to lie.

He says whosoever will can,and whosoever believeth is.

He says that SOME will not obey the Gospel.

He tells us that in the OT, and he repeats it in the NT.

He also tells us that His spirit will not always strive with man. Now, I trust what God says. If you claim he never strives with man, and if you claim the Spirit never convicts men of sin, and if you claim that Jesus never draws all men unto him, I am going to stay with Jesus, not you.

He died for me, he bought my salvation with his blood. He has no reason for me to think otherwise.

I don't know what God didn't creat a little world of robot people, where everone was just chosen and not saved. Or Why you think GOd would of sacraficed HIs only begotten son, whom he loved, to show us His love to us, when it wasn't needful. (In your eyes.)

Isaiah 53:10  ¶Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

I know this, it pleased God to bruise Him. It pleased God knowing that everyone would not accept the gift. It pleased God, knowing that some would still disobey the Gospel.

I believe that is why he will take vengeance upon them, because they disobeyed the Gospel.

Romans 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thessalonians 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

[xzins]

You are right. I did not go into a theological explanation of it. Despite it all, Paul was chosen and the bible is true. Even in those areas that are difficult to understand, the Bible is true.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Jesus says he will draw all men to him.

Ma'am, the issue here is not a question of whether or not Jesus Christ will draw all men unto Himself (for did not even the Pharisees say, in John 12:19, that the "whole world" has gone after Him?)... the issue is, of all men whom Jesus is readily willing to receive into the Atonement of His Sacrifice, who will come??

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (John 6:65-66, KJV)

By claiming that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will select the God-pleasing Choice to Repent and Follow Jesus, your man-made theologies directly contradict the express teaching of Romans 8:5-8.

A Fallen and unregenerated Man will NEVER select the God-pleasing Choice (Romans 8:5-8).

[JesseShurun]

Now I see on another thread that they're eating them over there in China.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Got the hiccups??

No, just wondering if you still did from the other night, when you were drinking and posting?

And just a quick note: its a privilege to know someone like yourself who knows everything.

BigMack

[Jael]

Your use of...

Romans 7:18
 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

falls nothing but flat as well,
in your claim that an unsaved man couldn't believe in Jesus Christ.

Paul is speaking here as a saved man
who still struggles with the flesh.

Don't make the oh so common mistake of men followers and claim verses to support your doctrine, that obviously do not apply.

[RnMomof7]

You did not answer me Jael..Jesus does not lie and he told Peter that flesh and blood could not reveal the truth to Him..only God could reveal it to him. Jesus said unless you are born again you can not SEE the kingdom of God..you can not desire what you can not see.....and the scriptures say unregenerate man can not hear the Holy Spirit

You have one proof text...only one..How did Jesus draw the pigmy in the rainforest to him in the 1700's..no gospel...Did Jesus lie?

You assume PAS..(all) means all of all types and sorts..that would be an incorret rendering..in the days of Jesus the Jews thought they were the only people God loved or cared for..Jesus was making a point..He was going to the gentiles too..He was talking about all nations and kinds of people..not all individual people..

Jhn 6:65   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. ELECTION

Jhn 6:65   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. ELECTION

Mat 11:25   At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes

Mat 16:17   And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Well, so much for my advice. Sorry, OP.

's okay. No harm done.

(I did appreciate your comments, which were gracious in the sense of adversarial respect.)

As a minister of Christ... do you use the canteen of water?

Here is (a little) water; let him be baptized. (JMHO)

[Jael]

I would never follow the creeds of men, especially not from men in churches that still follow mother Rome and baptize unsaved babies and claim that they are now engrafted into Christ.

I stand here:

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I can do no other.

[RnMomof7]

 
  Rom 10:16   But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
  
  Rom 10:17   So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
  
  Rom 10:18   But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

So how is it then?

  Rom 10:20   But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.


God does all the work..He brings you new life..He places the desire in your heart..He sees that you hear the gospel ...God electing that is how. If God INTENDS to save a pigmy He will send him a missionary..God never fails..

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

No, just wondering if you still did from the other night, when you were drinking and posting?

Mmm. I think you kinda screwed up your attempt at sarcastic commentary already, today. Or "to today". Er, whatever.

Maybe next time, eh, old chap?

Cheers.....