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To: drstevej; Polycarp; Aquinasfan; sandyeggo; ultima ratio; sitetest; BlackElk; patent
<> I lifted this from Rerum Novarum Blog (The site of a former SSPX schismatic who returned to the fold)<>

Are anti-Catholics more Honest about Vatican II then Self-styled 'Traditionalists'??? (Part I)

Ask yourself that question as you read the following series which will be updated occasionally. This first installment is from a tract which quoted a well-known anti-Catholic whose name I will not mention. Yes it is doctrinally specious in places but the main thrust of the argument is correct:

XXXXX XXXXXXX noted Evangelical authority on Roman Catholic doctrine, takes an in-depth look at the documents of Vatican II in the preface to the fifth edition of his book VVVVVVVVVVVVV. XXXXX XXXXXXX writes:

"The Second Vatican Council, which closed late in 1965, made changes in the liturgy, administrative practices, and in the matter of religious freedom. It repeated the claim that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church, although it did recognize that other churches contain some elements of truth.

"But Pope John XXIII, who called the first session, and Pope Paul VI, who presided over the later sessions (as well as several prominent cardinal and theologians), took care to emphasize that no changes would be made in the doctrinal structure of the Church...The primary purpose of the Council was to update the liturgy and administrative practices and so to make the Church more efficient and more acceptable to the 20th century world.

"The introduction of the `New Mass,' for instance, brought about a change in language - Latin is no longer required, except in the prayer of consecration. But as Protestants, it is not important to us whether the Mass is said in Latin or English or Swahili - it is not the language of the Mass that we object to, it is its content and meaning. (See Chronicle II, `The Sacrifice of the Mass').

"On previous occasions, Rome has changed her tactics when old methods became ineffective, but she has never changed her nature. In any religious organization, doctrine is the most basic and important part of its structure, since what people believe determines what they do. An official document, `The Constitution on the Church' prepared by the Council and approved by the Pope, reaffirms basic Catholic doctrine precisely as it stood before the Council met.

The doctrine of papal infallibility is restated. We are told that when `by a definitive act he proclaims a doctrine of faith and morals...his definitions, of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, are justly called, irreformable (Article 25). The pope has lost none of his powers. He remains the absolute ruler in the Roman Church. But if papal decrees past and present are `irreformable, `what hope is there for real reform in the Church of Rome?

"The document on the Church repeats in substance the teaching of the Council of Trent that `priests and bishops are the representatives of God on earth...justly, therefore, they are called not only angels, but gods, holding as they do the place of authority of God on earth.' (Catechism of Trent).

"In fact, no more sweeping claims were made by the Council of Trent (1545-1563), nor by the First Vatican Council (1870), than are made in these documents from Vatican II. Despite all the claims to the contrary, the Council has firmly maintained the doctrine of the primacy of Peter and of papal succession. In his book, Ecclesiam Suam, Pope Paul expressed his distress because of what some of the `separated brethren' say about the pope as the stumbling block in the way of church unity. He said, `Do not some of them say that if it were not for the primacy of the pope, the reunion of the separated churches with Catholic Church would be easy? We beg the separated brethren to consider the inconsistency of this position, not only in that, without the pope, the Catholic Church would no longer be Catholic, but also because without the supreme decisive pastoral office of Peter, the unity of the Church of Christ would utterly collapse.'

"We must say that at this point we agree with the Pope, at least to this extent, that if the Roman Catholic Church were reformed according to scripture, it would have to be abandoned. But the gross errors concerning salvation still remain. Moreover, the Council did nothing toward removing the more than 100 anathemas or curses pronounced by the Council of Trent on the Protestant churches and beliefs. If there is to be any true unity, surely this would seem the logical place to start...

"The `Constitution on the Church' makes it abundantly clear that Rome has no intention of revising any of her basic doctrine, but only of updating her methods and techniques for more efficient administration and to present a more attractive appearance. This is designed to make it easier for the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant churches to return to her fold. There is no indication that she has any intentions of entering into genuine give-and-take church unity negotiations. Her purpose is not union, but ABSORPTION. Church union with Rome is strictly a one-way street. The age-old danger that Protestantism has faced from the Roman Church has not diminished; in fact, it may well have increased. For through this less offensive posture and this superficial ecumenicism, Rome is much better situated to carry out her program of eliminating opposition and moving into a position of world dominance.

<> So, there it is. This Protestant is more honest about Vatican Two than the soi disant "sspx traditionalists,"(who are protestants who go to mass)<>

757 posted on 12/05/2002 9:48:10 AM PST by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Dear Catholicguy,

Very interesting post. Thanks.


sitetest
764 posted on 12/05/2002 9:59:27 AM PST by sitetest
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To: Catholicguy
Great post.

"The `Constitution on the Church' makes it abundantly clear that Rome has no intention of revising any of her basic doctrine, ...There is no indication that she has any intentions of entering into genuine give-and-take church unity negotiations. Her purpose is not union, but ABSORPTION. Church union with Rome is strictly a one-way street. The age-old danger that Protestantism has faced from the Roman Church has not diminished; in fact, it may well have increased. For through this less offensive posture and this superficial ecumenicism, Rome is much better situated to carry out her program of eliminating opposition and moving into a position of world dominance.

Is it just me or do they sound scared? They're the ones that protested.
765 posted on 12/05/2002 10:04:40 AM PST by Desdemona
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To: Catholicguy; ultima ratio; All
Curious as to who wrote this assessment. Nevertheless, I an observation or two.

***"The `Constitution on the Church' makes it abundantly clear that Rome has no intention of revising any of her basic doctrine, but only of updating her methods and techniques for more efficient administration and to present a more attractive appearance. This is designed to make it easier for the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant churches to return to her fold.***

If this is the case (and it may well be as far a I have studied it) there may be unintended consequences for the RCC.

First, the "apparent" ecumenical openness of Vatican II may convey to rank in file Catholics that we Protestant "separated brethren" aren't so bad and thereby make them feel more comfortable attending home Bible studies, etc. led by evangelicals with the result that these RC fringe people become evangelical Protestants.

Second, the "apparent" ecumenical openness of Vatican II may be just the cover needed for liberal forces within the RCC to push the envelope to include compromise of RCC doctrine and tradition.

I am not prepared to say to what extent the second has happened. I have seen many, many instances of the first. In fact, I don't doubt that the whole ECT debacle was in part motivated by a RC desire to stem the inroads being made by evangelicals. Theologically the ECT statement was deceptive at best. No orthodox Catholic or Protestant should have signed it.
768 posted on 12/05/2002 10:10:28 AM PST by drstevej
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