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To: pseudo-justin
If all you want is for me to rely on Scripture, then you should know that I already do and that you did not need to quote from Augustine to convince me to do so. What I will not do is pretend that the texts are intelligible in themselves, or even have a determinate meaning, when read wihtout having first affirmed the teachings of the apostolic churches.

To say that a teaching has the unanimous consent of the Fathers is to say that one or the other of the following is true:

1.It is explicitly affirmed by all the Fathers.

2. It is explcitly affirmed by some of the Fathers and explicitly denied by none of them

This is a good starter definition, and it is hardly "Catholic" in a pejorative sense. It merely accomodates the obvious truth that no one Father's opinion trumps all others.


Is the following correct?

Council of Trent

Session IV, April 8, 1546, Decree Concerning the Edition and the Use of the Sacred Books:

... "Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, it [the Council of Trent] decrees that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,—in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine,—wresting the sacred Scriptures to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy Mother Church—to whom it belongs to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures—hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries and be punished with the penalties by law established."

Source: Dogmatic Canons and Decrees, copyright 1912 by the Devin-Adair Company, published by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., 1977, pg. 11.

In the absence of a word by word interpretation of Scripture approved by the unanimous consent of the fathers, it would appear you could be in deep doo doo.
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399 posted on 11/22/2002 2:12:31 PM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: OLD REGGIE
In the absence of a word by word interpretation of Scripture approved by the unanimous consent of the fathers, it would appear you could be in deep doo doo.

Why in the world would you say that? You seem to think the follwing:

There was unanaimous consent of the Fathers on a certain point (or any point)only if there is one place, or text, written by the Fathers themselves,where all the views of the Fathers are drawn up.

But this is just simply a false assumption. The Fathers wrote at different times and places on different texts, in different genres;not just commentaries but homilies,treatises, etc. DO you think the Fathers of Trent did not realize that? The whole vast body of Patristic literature needs to be considered. I receive the truth about the unanimous consent of the Fathers in any one of a number of ways: first by reading as much of them as I can, second, by leaning on the Church's teaching office, which does not pronounce on something until the Fathers have been reviewed, and finally in other places where alot of their unanimous opinions have already been gathered, codified and systematically presented. There is a cooperative division of labor among all the people who contribute to the Chruch's teaching office (despite the false image of top-down unilateral, papal deliverances) See, for one example, Ludwig Ott's "The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" for a primer text. Or go to the Catholic answers website and see their pieces that present the unanimous opinions of the Fathers, in excerpt form. Maybe you better not, they were all in unanimous consent on the things the Catholic Church teaches.

In all fairness, perhaps you are concerned that the decree from Trent forbids you from holding what is contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, and yet you have no easy way of knowing what the unanaimous consent of the Fathers was on a point. But you do, it is called the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was composed after the largest consultation of Bishops and theologians of any text in the history of Christianity. And yes, the composers of the Catechism knew about this very decreee from Trent (which has been reaffirmed by Pope Leo XII and, I think, more Popes) and were concerned not to put forward anything contray to the unaimous consent of the Fathers.

If you are interested in a Patristic Commentary on Scripture that attempts to put together in one place some, and only some, of what they thought on particular passages, I can refer you to some titles.

405 posted on 11/22/2002 3:39:21 PM PST by pseudo-justin
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