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To: OLD REGGIE
Perhaps it would be worthwhile if the Protestants themselves could agree on what sola scriptura means. It is the ever shifting target promulgated by man which, when all the obfuscation is done, means "if it ain't in the Bible, I don't need to believe it (at least to get saved)".

I see you guys are whipping out your dictionaries for kecharitomene, as if the dictionary could settle the question. Do any of you realize that dictionaries give the meanings of a word but are not suffficient to express the essence of the reality signified by the word? Dictionaries can tell me what the word "water" means, but do not tell me what the very nature of water really is. For the latter, I need to pass beyond the meaning of the word to the grasp what is not in the word but in the thing signified by the word -- nature of the thing. Now, the dictionaries can tell us no more than what the word kecharitomene means, but it does not tell us what kecharitomene IS precisely when applied to Mary.

Why MUST we say that the reality signified by kecharitimone is nothing but the meaning of the word? If that standard were applied to any other passage of Scripture, the words God has given us in Sccripture would be emptied of their power to convey anything more than what dictionaries can inform us of Scriptures' sayings -- and that would be impoverished indeed.

357 posted on 11/21/2002 3:23:51 PM PST by pseudo-justin
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To: pseudo-justin
Perhaps it would be worthwhile if the Protestants themselves could agree on what sola scriptura means. It is the ever shifting target promulgated by man which, when all the obfuscation is done, means "if it ain't in the Bible, I don't need to believe it (at least to get saved)".

Since you are the one using, and attacking, Sola Scriptura I believe it is incumbent on you to define just what it is you are attacking.

In any event, I will accept a few words of wisdom from Augustine.

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO* (354-430)

"In those things which are clearly laid down in Scripture, all those things are found which pertain to faith and morals." (De Doct. Chr. 2:9)
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"Whatever you hear from them [the Scriptures], let that be well received by you. Whatever is without them refuse, lest you wander in a cloud." (De Pastore, 11)
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"All those things which in times past our ancestors have mentioned to be done toward mankind and have delivered unto us: all those things also which we see and deliver to our posterity, so far as they pertain to the seeking and maintaining true religion, the Holy Scripture has not passed over in silence." (Ep. 42)
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"Whatever our Saviour would have us read of his actions and sayings he commanded his apostles and disciples, as his hands, to write." (De Consensu Evang. 1:ult)
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Let them [the Donatists] demonstrate their church if they can, not by the talk and rumor of the Africans; not by the councils of their own bishops; not by the books of their disputers; not by deceitful miracles, against which we are cautioned by the word of God, but in the prescript of the law, in the predictions of the prophets, in the verses of the Psalms, in the voice of the Shepherd himself, in the preaching and works of the evangelists; that is, in all canonical authorities of the sacred Scriptures. (De Unit. Eccl. 16)
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"This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves."
St. Augustine, quoted from his City of God, book XI, Chapter 3.
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359 posted on 11/21/2002 3:39:22 PM PST by OLD REGGIE
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