Posted on 10/29/2002 5:18:29 AM PST by xzins
What I said earlier to Ambassador -- Why would you make fun of the sacrificial system that God instituted?"
You seem not to get my point!
Is animal sacrifice ~NOT~ animal butchering????
My point is to portray the sacrifice for what it is -a ritual centered around the death and destruction of an animal. It ~IS~ animal butchering. The term butchering is not mocking in any way, but is an explicit description of the system of which you took offense. That should tell you something.
I simply wanted to stress that in the time of this 'millennial kingdom' there will be a reversion to an O.T. practice centering on a need to shed blood for sin as if Christ's sacrifice had not yet happenned.
How can repeated animal sacrifice be a memorial for the "once for all" sacrifice of Jesus Christ that did away with the O.T. Sacrifices???
Psalm 40
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.Micah 6
6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?Hebrews 10
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the secondbr> 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
You demand a return to a system which, yes, was ordained by God, but which the Scriptures, straight up, tell us the Lord was never pleased with anyway!
But then again, Isaiah 65 has already told us, straight up, that it is a description, not of a 'millennial kingdom', but of the New Heavens and the New Earth. Yet, you require and insist on inserting your 'millenial kingdom' into this passage anyway! It literally tells us that this is a description of the New Heavens and the New Earth! You ought to be ashamed of yourself!
We serve a ~RISEN~ savior and we fully expect a perfect world where there will be no death. Even in your bastardized interpretation of Isaiah 65 as the 'millennial kingdom' you would have a description of the lamb lying down with the wolf without fearing death! Your 'millennial kingdom' would have the lion becoming a vegetarian never to feast on animal meat again. Yet you demand the butchering of animals in this 'millennial kingdom' in order to satisfy your own presumptions of an inconsistantly and conveniently used 'literal hermeneutic'.
Jean
Since we believe that the millennial kingdom begins at the Resurrection of Christ:
Acts 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
According to the infallible Word of God, the Bible tells us ~LITERALLY~ that at the Resurrection, Jesus became the ~JEWISH~ Messiah sitting on David's throne! (Just because it is a spiritual reality does ~NOT~ mean that it is not literally true!)
Since Jesus returns at the end of the age, this obviously is the end of the "millennial kingdom" and thus, Jesus returns ~AFTER~ the Great Tribulation!
Furthermore, we are told in Revelation 7 that an innumerable and uncountable throng from ~ALL~ nations (apparently including Jews) has come out of the Great Tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb!
Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of the ~great tribulation~, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Note to pre-tribbers: Just who are these guys??? The 'church' takes 2000 years (and counting) to amass its members, yet this group described here as which "no man could number" takes a mere 3 1/2 to 7 years to assemble????
Of course, I must note that, in amillennial theology, this is literally all believers from all time -from the time of Adam until the time of Christ's second coming!
Jean
John 15:18
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
John 16:33
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
The time of tribulation is from Christ's resurrection to the second coming.
The Great Tribulation is the ~whole~ age from the Resurrection unto the second coming!
"And I see you follow Doc. Refusing to answer SCRIPTURAL challenges to your interpretations concerning a physical resurrection. "
Not intentional. My isp is down (I'm elswhere at present without time to go back to day-old conversation).
Jean
For clarification.
Jean
Well, I'll simply repeat the God instituted the system as a preview of Christ's sacrifice. His displeasure was not with the what he had done but was rather with the manner in which the people turned it into an insincere, hypocritical system of "going through the motions" to make a big show.
As far as your interpretation of Is 65, I simply don't buy your "tree" thing. It doesn't say what you are stretching it to say. It says they'll live a long time (like a tree); it doesn't say they'll live forever.
It's natural for me to assign it to the millennium rather than to the New Heavens and New Earth since we're clearly told in Revelation that there is no death there.
No shame in that.
OK, I get it.
Are you saying that somewhere between his departure and his return that a tribulation occurs and that, therefore, it is necessarily post-trib?
When is the "great tribulation?"
Which tribulation is that?
Jean, I'm going from memory so you might have to adjust these. I'm not an amill so I don't keep track of their different camps.
Historicist amill = The Revelation covers 2000 years of history (at this point). It is the progressing prophecy that covers the whole period from Jesus' departure to his return.
Futurist amill = The Revelation is future (as well as many other prophecies). It will transpire some day.
Preterist amill = The great bulk of prophecy happened prior to the end of the 1st century of the church with SOME things yet to occur. (You'll have to fill us in on which ones are yet to occur and which are already fulfilled. I think they do see a direct fulfillment of the antichrist with Nero and the Pope, but don't ask me how it can be both.)
So, those are the camps. Which is/are yours? And why?
Jean, I'm going from memory so you might have to modify each of these amill definitions. I'm not an amill so I don't keep track of their different camps. But these are the 3 different amill camps I remember AND I'm curious which you fall into??
Historicist amill = The Revelation covers 2000 years of history (at this point). It is the progressing prophecy that covers the whole period from Jesus' departure to his return.
Futurist amill = The Revelation is future (as well as many other prophecies). It will transpire some day.
Preterist amill = The great bulk of prophecy happened prior to the end of the 1st century of the church with SOME things yet to occur. (You'll have to fill us in on which ones are yet to occur and which are already fulfilled. I think they do see a direct fulfillment of the antichrist with Nero and the Pope, but don't ask me how it can be both.)
So, those are the camps. Which is/are yours? And why?
"Who will populate the millennium in natural bodies?" It cannot be the church because it will be raptured and gain new bodies. It cannot be unbelievers because they will all be destroyed when Christ returns to earth. We cannot make an exception for Israel, because any Israelite, just like any Gentile, must be saved before Christ returns to earth or else they will be destroyed with the rest of the unbelievers. Who will enter the millennium with natural bodies? Only one answer remains. It has to be tribulation saints. Tribulation saints are saved during the tribulation after the rapture. You think no one will not notice what is going on at this peroid of time? A great multitude of folks that were playing church will have their eyes WIDE OPEN during the Tribulation and turn and be saved. Since they miss the rapture they remain in their natural bodies to enter the millennium.
BigMack
Depends what day of the week it is.
Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
AWESOME! LIGHT ON !!
Does this refer to the earlier mention of "false Christs?"
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