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Principles of Literal Bible Interpretation
Bible Truth ^ | Revised, Aug 2001 | Cooper P. Abrams, III

Posted on 10/29/2002 5:18:29 AM PST by xzins



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: actual; allegorical; bible; figurative; interpretation; literal; real; symbolic
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To: Corin Stormhands; RnMomof7; Jean Chauvin; the_doc; Matchett-PI; ksen; nobdysfool; Frumanchu; ...
We do not question the gifts.

Having been a member of a former AOG Pentecostal church, I actually fell out of my chair to read that you actually call pew jumping flopping on the floor screaming in strange tongues like a howler monkey a spiritual gift.

Perhaps the problem with the AOG Pentecostals is that you don't consider who is giving you these gifts. I'm sure that had Eve stopped to consider who offered her a bite, she would have declined. But the sobering thing is that the Bible explicitly says that the woman was deceived.



Back to something I saw in the_doc's excellent post #157 which talks about how hypocritical the Premillennialist is in basing everything upon what he thinks that Rev 20 says instead of what Rev 20 actually says.

The Premillennialists isn't even plainly reading what Rev 20 actually says. He is actually reading it through the veil of his Premillennial expectations about what it should say. This is why we are constantly hearing the Premillenialist say that "Rev 20 plainly says that Jesus will reign for 1000 years on earth" when reigning on earth is nowhere to be found in this passage.

What the Premillenialists has also never stopped to consider is that the first resurrection can't possibly be the resurrection of the dead. They just continue on the merry way of assuming that the reigning will be on earth and conclude that the resurrection must be the resurrection of the dead in order for these people to reign. They go so far as to simply assume that "they lived" means that they were resurrected from the dead. They will then find their favorite resurrection of the just proof text to back up their eisegesis.

What they fail to realize is that John 5:28 and John 11:24 and Acts 24:15 rule out the possibility that the first resurrection of Rev 20 is the resurrection of the dead. Of course, one doesn't even have to appeal to any of these scriptures to see this for the wicked as well as the just are a part of the resurrection of the dead. Therefore, no matter how much artificial separation the Premillennialist places between the resurrection of the just and the unjust, they are both still the resurrection of the dead.

The Premillennialist will object, of course, and say that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the second is the resurrection of the unjust, but this is just more bad eisegesis on his part. I will point out that this really is impossible for the ones who are alive when the Lord comes will never be a part of the resurrection of the dead, but they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. But they are a part of the only resurrection that is important for eternal life.

So, I am left trying to figure out what this first resurrection is and I found it in John 11:25: And I believe this. Then, I began to notice the interesting things that Ephesians and Romans and John have to say. In other words, once the Lord lifted the veil of my Premillennial expectations I began to see the scriptures for what they really said, not what I forced them to say.
201 posted on 10/31/2002 7:37:33 AM PST by theAmbassador
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To: theAmbassador; RnMomof7; xzins; Revelation 911; fortheDeclaration
Perhaps the problem with the AOG Pentecostals is that you don't consider who is giving you these gifts.

Are you really that dense? Did you really miss the whole exchange between Rn and me?

I'm not even bothering to read the rest of your post. If you can't recognize that Rn and I were joking, then you're hopeless.

But for the record, we don't have snakes OR a trampoline. And the only time I'll be rolling on the floor is while I'm laughing at how gullible you are.

202 posted on 10/31/2002 8:02:04 AM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: xzins
It is apparent from all the contradictory teachings of the many denominations and cults of Christendom, that they all cannot be right.

Okay, so which one is right?

The one in Jesus' own mind. He knows what He meant.

A great "politically correct" non-answer. If you had named a particular denomination, you would have incurred the wrath of those who do not adhere to your brand of Christianity. However, by putting the onus on the individual to "seek the mind of Jesus," you are leaving it wide open to personal interpretation. And that's what got us into this mess in the first place.

I suppose that in order to know His mind, I must study the scriptures, pray and ask God. I've heard that one before--from the Mormons.

203 posted on 10/31/2002 8:14:12 AM PST by wai-ming
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To: theAmbassador; RnMomof7; jude24; nobdysfool; Jerry_M
I would add that that the premills' rendering of the resurection of the just and the unjust as two different bodily resurrection episodes separated by 1000 years is specifically disallowed by John 5:28-29. That, in turn, means that John 5:28-29 specifically disallows the premill reading of the two resurrections in Revelation 20.

John 5:28-29 is clearly saying that the resurrection of the physically dead is a single mass resurrection event involving two different destinies for the involved souls.

(And inasmuch as this is evidently a Judgment Day episode, we should immediately remember that the Bible always speaks of the Lord's Judgement as involving a SEPARATION OF WHEAT FROM CHAFF and a SEPARATION OF SHEEP FROM GOATS. The just and the unjust have to be separated on Judgment Day AS THEY ARE RAISED TO TWO DIFFERENT DESTINATIONS. They have to be SEPARATED in that they are ALL RAISED IN A SINGLE HOUR.)

This is what I saw two decades ago. I immediately abandoned premillennialism as being Scripturally impossible. I immediately realized that the literal reading of Revelation 20 is a trap. I immediately realized that the Lord was unlocking the trap and letting me out of it. It dawned on me that I was getting the kind of private audience which He gave His inner circle of disciples when they got confused by His metaphors during His earthly ministry.

It wasn't until twenty years later that I saw that 2 Peter 3 also rules out the premillennial position. I laughed when I saw that.

204 posted on 10/31/2002 8:30:01 AM PST by the_doc
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To: theAmbassador; RnMomof7; jude24; nobdysfool; Jerry_M
I should also mention that one of the funny things about 2 Peter 3 which made me laugh is the fact that it rules out premillennialism in a completely different WAY.

But 2 Peter 3 is just as devastating to premillennialism as John 5:28-29 is. Peter tells us that the Lord is not coming back until Judgment Day. This rules out premillennialism.

(And there is a peculiar but undeniable sense in which Peter suggests that we are ALREADY IN "the thousand years"--which is precisely what the amills have been telling the premills based rigorously on John 5:25-29!)

205 posted on 10/31/2002 8:52:28 AM PST by the_doc
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To: the_doc; All
It dawned on me that I was getting the kind of private audience which He gave His inner circle of disciples when they got confused by His metaphors during His earthly ministry.

Amen to this, and despite what the Catholics would have you believe about private interpretations of Scripture, it is open to all who ask.

206 posted on 10/31/2002 8:56:26 AM PST by JesseShurun
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To: JesseShurun
Yes, the "private audience" is just the following of good hermeneutics.
207 posted on 10/31/2002 9:10:23 AM PST by the_doc
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To: Corin Stormhands
But for the record, we don't have snakes OR a trampoline. And the only time I'll be rolling on the floor is while I'm laughing at how gullible you are.

I just told you that I am a former member of an AOG Pentecostal church. I know what kind of stuff passes for spirituality in this denomination. I was also keying of the fact that you told me you would rather be counted with the pew jumpers over the Calvinists. This is a dreadful mistake friend.

The vast majority of pew jumping Pentecostals are just plain lost. It is an idiotic charade that only resembles being drunk on the Spirit. And one can never know the difference until one is actually drunk on the Spirit. But then, telling this to the lost Pentecostal is just plain futile most of the time: In fact, it requires that the Lord remake the wineskin from an old one to a new one: He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
208 posted on 10/31/2002 9:25:59 AM PST by theAmbassador
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To: theAmbassador; Corin Stormhands
***you would rather be counted with the pew jumpers over the Calvinists***

Cool activity. Have Calvinists sit in the pews while you try to jump over them. Wonder if it is easier to jump over a 4 pointer than a 5 pointer?
209 posted on 10/31/2002 9:30:07 AM PST by drstevej
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To: wai-ming
It is apparent from all the contradictory teachings of the many denominations and cults of Christendom, that they all cannot be right.

Okay, so which one is right?

The denominations of Christendom, by virtue of their collective regard for the Bible as their source of authority, will, generally, only differ from one another in minor, non-essential points of their doctrine.

Cults which may lay claim to the title of Christian, ALL degrade the authority of the Bible as a source document in some way, either adding new revelation (written or oral), or by not accepting the Bible as a fully authoritive document. Consequently, these will typically differ from the denominations of Christendom on major points of doctrine.

Even though Bible-based churches will not all agree on every point of doctrine, but they do typically agree on a set of basic beliefs, sometimes referred to as essentials.

Other beliefs, ... such as ... how to baptize, ... how to worship, ... when to worship, ... how to take the Lord's Supper, ... etc., ... can be different without affecting the status of the associated congregations as the people of God.

... The one in Jesus' own mind. He knows what He meant.

A great "politically correct" non-answer. If you had named a particular denomination, you would have incurred the wrath of those who do not adhere to your brand of Christianity. However, by putting the onus on the individual to "seek the mind of Jesus," you are leaving it wide open to personal interpretation. And that's what got us into this mess in the first place.

I suppose that in order to know His mind, I must study the scriptures, pray and ask God. I've heard that one before--from the Mormons.

The Mormons rely on an additional writings, which, even the Mormons admit, conflict with the writings of the Bible, at points.

Even further, the Mormons regard, as authoritive, the teachings of whoever is their current earthly Prophet.

So, it has occurred that a current Prophet will contradict a past Prophet, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, or any combination of the set.

And, ... if after seeking the guidance of the spirit on a particular teaching, ... the bosom burns ... they will accept that teaching, ... even if it means swallowing a multitude of contradictions along the way.

The way to tell where God would have you to be (i.e. choose a church to attend) is to ask Him (i.e. pray) for His guidance. Utilize the revelation with which He has already blessed you, and persistently study His word (the Bible) to refine that revelation which you possess and to obtain what further God would have you to know.

Know that you will never find a perfect church (it's made up of people, after all), ... but strive to find one where LOVE is in evidence, ... where God's Word (not the pastor's opinion ... or any new revelation) is taught, ... and where you are blessed and can bless others.


210 posted on 10/31/2002 9:36:34 AM PST by Quester
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To: theAmbassador; xzins; Revelation 911; RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration; Admin Moderator
You are not my friend. You are not familiar with my church.

For the record (and I'm sure you already know this), I was a member of a Reformed Church. I watched the session destroy a young family because they told the wife, a new Christian, that her skirts were too short and her husband wasn't one of the elect.

We left that church for theological reasons. Since we left the session, at the Pastor's leading has driven away more than 200 people (more than half the congregation). Want to know why? Because the associate pastor and the children's ministries director went in private to the pastor about the appearance of his "relationship" with his secretary. When they returned from a youth retreat a week later they were called before the session and dismissed. The pastor is still there. (so is the secretary)

Yeah, there are some wacky pentecostals out there. I'm not part of them. And if you really were a member of an AOG church, you'd understand how things vary between the congregations.

But I HAVE SEEN and experienced the HATRED that I've come to know as Calvinism.

Are all Calvinists like that? No. My best friend from college (and my best man) is a Calvinist. I have some Calvinist friends I converse with on other threads. They can't stand your crowd either.

So catch a clue. If I am EVER convinced of Calvinism or any other ism, it 1) won't happen on FR and 2) won't happen from the likes of you.

Leave me alone.

211 posted on 10/31/2002 9:40:03 AM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: drstevej; RnMomof7; xzins
Have Calvinists sit in the pews while you try to jump over them.

Having watched the faces of a few Calvinists while I dared to raise my hand while leading worship music, we'd probably have to have the paramedics close by...

212 posted on 10/31/2002 9:41:45 AM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: drstevej; Corin Stormhands
Wonder if it is easier to jump over a 4 pointer than a 5 pointer?

........depends how conical thier heads are LOL - landing is not a problem though - except for the double predester's - thier heads are harder

213 posted on 10/31/2002 9:51:08 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: wai-ming; P-Marlowe; ShadowAce; RnMomof7; drstevej
Nope, my point is that it is doctrines that separate denominations.....in most cases. (Sometimes it's historical.)

Jesus knows what He thinks about any of those doctrines. Therefore, it's the correct doctrinal answers that are important rather than the correct denomination. I imagine most denominations hold some correct and some faulty doctrines.

If you were to ask me which denomination that I think is the most biblical in our day, I'd say without hesitation, "The Calvary Chapels."

If you'd ask me which I think are the least faithful, I'd say, "Episcopal, United Methodist, and the Alphabet Presbyterians and Lutherans." In my opinion, they are a type of Thyatira (Revelation 2-3.)

If you'd ask which I think are quasi-Christian cultic, I'd say Unit/Univ, Scientology, Christian Science, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Unification.
214 posted on 10/31/2002 10:14:31 AM PST by xzins
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To: wai-ming; P-Marlowe; ShadowAce; RnMomof7; drstevej; Corin Stormhands
Nope, my point is that it is doctrines that separate denominations.....in most cases. (Sometimes it's historical.)

Jesus knows what He thinks about any of those doctrines. Therefore, it's the correct doctrinal answers that are important rather than the correct denomination. I imagine most denominations hold some correct and some faulty doctrines.

If you were to ask me which denomination that I think is the most biblical in our day, I'd say without hesitation, "The Calvary Chapels."

If you'd ask me which I think are the least faithful, I'd say, "Episcopal, United Methodist, and the Alphabet Presbyterians and Lutherans." In my opinion, they are a type of Thyatira (Revelation 2-3.)

If you'd ask which I think are quasi-Christian cultic, I'd say Unit/Univ, Scientology, Christian Science, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Unification.
215 posted on 10/31/2002 10:14:45 AM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
I think that Charismatics are among the few groups that are told by conservative Christianity that they must "practice correctly" or get out of Dodge. Why do we say that to Charismatics but not to Baptists?

Because us Baptists are the standard by which all other denominations are to be measured. ;^)

216 posted on 10/31/2002 10:44:06 AM PST by ksen
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To: ksen; xzins
Because us Baptists are the standard by which all other denominations are to be measured.

et tu ksen? (No, I'm really not over here in "this" forum, you're just imagining it...)

217 posted on 10/31/2002 10:49:40 AM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: Corin Stormhands
Corin Pewjumper.....careful not to trip over your beard. ;^)
218 posted on 10/31/2002 10:51:28 AM PST by ksen
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To: theAmbassador
...and has seizures on the floor in a demonic charade of true Pentecostalism....

What is "true Pentecostalism"?

219 posted on 10/31/2002 10:58:25 AM PST by ksen
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To: Corin Stormhands
et tu ksen?

Hehheh.

I figure the hardware glitches are responsible for me seeing you over here......BTW, nice to see you here. ;^)

220 posted on 10/31/2002 11:01:54 AM PST by ksen
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